Where all are welcome but few call home...

Tuesday, March 24, 2009

Something Extraordinary

Per our good patron Leigh Botts' request, I offer the following anniversary post (although a few weeks overdue) concerning the question of the existence of God (a la Christianity). To me, the question itself is infinitely baffling. Honestly, I have no idea where to begin to answer it. I know, I know, it's a simple question and I'm just managing to complicate it. Well, having multiple degrees in theology will do that for you...but I think having an honest, open mindset to one's everyday life experience will do it too. That's exactly what did it for me, by a long shot.

I think it all began for me a number of years ago when I came to the point where I was no longer afraid to answer the question "Do you believe God exists?" with something besides "yes." I could not imagine myself in a world that did not have a foundation, a structure, and a purpose. Over time, I found ways to let go of that understanding of the world and as I did so, I began to experience my life with an exhilarating freedom, something akin to the gasp of a child's first breath in this world. As time went by, I found that the God that is commonly known in Western Christianity (male, sovereign, eternal, omnipotent, omniscient, etc.) was not a God in whom I could believe with any modicum of intellectual honesty. Essentially, if that God is responsible for this world, something is profoundly fucked up. Sure, I knew the standard Christian responses to theodicy -- humans are responsible for evil and suffering and God ultimately has a plan of redemption which began long ago, etc. -- but I simply couldn't buy it. To me, that God would either be astonishingly incompetent or ruthlessly sadistic. Then there was the issue of a number of poor experiences with Christians and the Church and essentially, the deal was sealed. I opted out.

But overall, the only thing I had accomplished was moving away from an experience of the world structured by God and metaphysics. Ah, but there's the problem. When I attempted to move away from that experience, I essentially just walked backwards away from it (and thus still faced it). Therefore, I was still living in that world, only from a standpoint of opposition. It's basically the same reason why I think the atheism vs. Christianity debate is pointless: they're flip sides of the same coin, a romantic symbiosis made for the ages. I found neither side of that coin to be helpful in living my life in the way I desired. I wanted to embrace life in the fullest and live an unencumbered life of faith, love, honesty, and commitment towards myself and others. I simply was unable to do these things within (or against) Christianity. Instead, I opted just to set it aside, leave it within arm's reach for conversation, and move on to something more helpful.

You see, I think it is a basic human need to construct some type of meaning in our lives. Thus, I can identify with Alicia Nash in the movie A Beautiful Mind when she says "I need to believe that something extraordinary is possible." Yes, so do I. I want to dream, to hope, to believe in things beyond what little evidence is given for me to do so. In the next post, I will discuss two sites that I find helpful in this process of constructing meaning: Buddhism and tragedy.

I wanted to get the conversation started in this post by addressing the issue of the existence of God. As I have shown, I am for all practical purposes agnostic. Where do you guys stand on the matter? Are you in with the God thing or not so much? It's spring season at thesecondchance so I'm opening the porch area for your enjoyment. So get your asses in here, order a drink, and toast to something extraordinary... Cheers.

25 Comments:

Blogger thewalrus said...

And lest any of you forget, this is a bar so make your drink request (alcoholic or non-) along with your comment. I'm pouring myself the usual for me - Captain and Coke. Cheers.

6:00 PM, March 24, 2009

 
Blogger Keith Brenton said...

Just an Irish coffee for me, thanks; no Reddi-Whip. I believe God exists, and has a just punishment in mind for the person who conned the world into thinking that whipped cream should come from a can.

Maybe like being eternally whipped with streams of foamy non-dairy from an aerosol container.

My position is that too many of my fellow Christians can't handle a conversation like this with grace and humor and make it that much tougher for folks to understand why the God we believe in isn't like that. He's not as grumpy as we are. He is funnier.

And He has this cosmic point to make about being good to each other and why life is pointless if we can't believe - at least - in that.

6:30 PM, March 24, 2009

 
Blogger thewalrus said...

kb,

Thanks for stopping by and your Irish coffee is served (I 86'd the canned whip for you).

I'm with you in wishing more Christians (just people in general for that matter) could jump into conversations like this with a balance of light and heavy.

6:51 PM, March 24, 2009

 
Blogger goose said...

In light of the current economic crisis we're all struggling through day by day, I'll go low budget and take an Admiral Nelson & Coke myself, walrus. And I'll also start my comment off with a "cheers" so I can go ahead and tip my glass back while I write... So, cheers.

I completely agree that we humans have a basic need, or desire at least, to construct meaning in our lives. I think that need/desire/quest is actually the basis of the formulation of religion in the first place. Maybe where things got a bit messy is when one group believing in "x" didn't agree with others who believed in "y", or some who believed in "x" didn't believe in every aspect of "x", or others just didn't believe that "x" was right at all whatsoever, or "y" either for that matter, and so on and so forth until disagreement and judgment and other forms of organized separating and segregating settled in and over time we end up with a multitude of opinions and belief systems encompassing a host of different theories and ideas on our existence, and that of "God". And so, we wind up with "my God this" and "MY God that" and "what, are you nuts, there isn't even a 'God' in the first place" and so on, all the while clinging to something that gives us comfort in some way or another or at least provides an answer of sorts so we can feel like our search for meaning has been worthwhile, that we found an answer to the question we "needed" to ask. What's interesting and ironic and ultimately fascinating about this is that our original "need" to construct meaning has led many of us to believe in an absolute something-or-other as if it were THE actual only existing answer to the broadest question imaginable, which we all started out with in the first place. It's actually pretty obnoxious for someone or some group to think they were the only ones to have gotten the answer "right" anyhow, isn't it?

Like you, walrus, I would put myself in the agnostic category, if I'm going to be in a category. I can respect and appreciate people's differences on this, and other, subjects (well, for the most part...). I guess what I would appreciate most of all is for people to be able to accept others' differences of opinion/belief, and just appreciate the fact that there's likely not an absolute answer out there for any of us to grasp hold of with any type of real certainty anyhow. It is incredibly frustrating to witness judgment and bigotry and violence and arrogance and other forms of intolerance in the name of something called God. So, if you believe in "x" then good for you, but for the love of God (said with tongue in cheek, of course...) be accepting and open to others who don't, and let other ideas have a chance to be contemplated and considered. And while you're at it, why not also be open-minded enough to consider that you may very likely not even have things right your damn self.

Now... I suppose this above said "need" to find meaning is what causes us (collectively) to grasp on to an idea or belief in the first place anyhow, which we've likely all done, and which perhaps we all likely "need" to do, and which ultimately tends to add to the interesting and beautiful and even frustrating nature of our lives as human beings and our efforts get along despite our differences. So, it appears I've essentially just talked this all back to the beginning of the circle this all started with, which must mean I need a second drink. And I'm probably not the only one...

In any case, cheers to you for sharing your thoughts on all this. And cheers to mindfulness and tolerance and open-mindedness in all forms, and cheers also to my recent discovery of a cheap ass spiced rum, which I hope you will stock for those of us who believe in and appreciate the art of drinking cheaply. Speaking of which, a second round please, bartender. Prost.

9:40 PM, March 24, 2009

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Is there a way to move beyond the whole atheism/theism argument? Is part of the problem western metaphysics? I'm assuming that you will go there with Buddhism. I'm reading a book right now that is speaking more to me now than any book has pre-Africa...and that's a big deal. John Caputo, The Weakness of God. Caputo uses the Christian tradition and that is what I find intriguing. Walrus mentioned the inability to find a constructive relationship with Christianity. The only relationship was a deconstructive one. Caputo takes this derridean idea and finds redemption and even a weak God behind it. I would recommend this book to anyone unsatisfied with the metaphysical, brute force, male, judge-like God that is been force fed into our society. God is weak. God is not omnipotent. "God is a hope, not a magician." I would love to dialogue about this question the Walrus poses with anyone who has read this book. The theological side of this book says the nominative category, "God" harbors an event. The question of being or entity is left to the side.

Does God exist? God might not exist until we invoke God's name. God might not really have free will. God might be trapped in the human moment. Waiting, decaying, silently hoping. I don't buy the "golden time" of mythology. The world was not fundamentally different then, than now. So when the bush burned, God waited for Moses to interpret. I think ever moment of our lives has a certain kind of potential. We can find ways to exegete the scene in an infinite variety of ways. In order for God to exist, must we not narrate God?

God as entity has lost alot of it's coherence for me. But maybe it's time we re-metaphorize the character "God" within our metaphorical narratives of the sacred scriptures and look to other metaphors in order to understand God. I have been particularly fond of the wind that blows over the primordial elements in Gen 1:1 lately. The wind seems to stir within me a desire to redescribe the world around me. In our redescription, in our poetry, we can identify the sacred within the mundane. The sacred can be unleased. But it waits for our incantation. The worldview assumptions embedded within a magical consciousness assumes the power of words. Truly, I won't take off my sandals unless the burning bush is interpreted.

On another note, can we move beyond the theistic/atheistic categorization? Is God confined to the nomenclature? Can God take off the G-O-D t-shirt and wear something else? I think so.

10:00 PM, March 24, 2009

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

By the way, I need a scotch a la rocks. I'm a newby to scotch so nothing fancy, I won't appreciate it.

10:04 PM, March 24, 2009

 
Blogger thewalrus said...

goose, honestly I'm gonna have to sub some Sailor Jerry for the moment as I just learned about the Admiral so I need to order it. Should have it in tomorrow.

squanchum, I'm serving you up some Famous Grouse, a cheap (but good) scotch favorite of mine.

Unfortunately, I've had a long night of phone conversations (three actually...which likely sets the record b/c it's more than two) so I'll have to respond to your comments tomorrow. Pops isn't doing too well so if you could all lend a thought or two, I'd be much obliged. Cheers.

1:36 AM, March 25, 2009

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Scotch please, straight up.

Globally, I am more interested in looking at the existence of God or gods in a psychological way, resulting from societal pressures and cultural expectations. Sure, a higher being or protectors of our fate exist in the mentality of others. If a culture acts and reacts based on existence, doesn’t that majority belief create existence for them?

Locally, I think of God as a coping mechanism. When people can’t explain or fathom the coincidences that happen in their lives and the lives of others… yet as a society we feel the need to understand and explain everything… lots of people use the existence of God as a way to cope, a way to fill the gap, a replacement, an excuse and explanation for success, failures and actions. It sounds like I had a few drinks before I got here.

Personally, and maybe the one sentence answer to your question, I don’t assign spiritual or unexplainable experiences to a god. When things like that happen, they tend to be more personal to me and when such a personal experience happens, I don’t feel the need to qualify it. Was that the question? You can call me a cab now.

8:41 AM, March 25, 2009

 
Blogger thewalrus said...

Squanchum, I did intentionally restrict this particular post to the theism/atheism debate mainly b/c it is the most common place to begin moving away from a strict theistic mindset. I couldn’t agree with you more that the dichotomy itself is highly if not entirely problematic. I will explore this particular issue a bit more in the upcoming post on Buddhism and tragedy. I do think you’re right that we need to find ways to re-metaphorize what we have called “God” for so long. The trick is finding a creative way to do so in Western culture where the word “imagination” still finds little to no place in organized Christian religion.

I do like Caputo but have not seen that book yet. I’m interested to hear more about what he has to say on the subject. I know that he and others have produced a number of books over the past few years attempting to reformulate the Christian narrative outside of a metaphysical framework, something which I know they recognize is not entirely possible but still something to be strived for.

4:35 PM, March 25, 2009

 
Blogger thewalrus said...

Mackin, welcome to thesecondchance. I poured up a Grouse straight up for you.

Thanks for commenting. Your comment on “coping” is spot on and I see it everywhere. Statements such as “everything happens for a reason” or “It was God’s will,” etc. are used in problematic ways. Dietrich Bonhoeffer spoke of how Christians have traditionally appropriated the ancient plot device called the “deus ex machina” whereby God is consulted to resolve difficulties or ease the tragic nature of “fate” in this world. Bonhoeffer says this is no longer viable and I agree. It is extraordinary though how much you hear God invoked in this way in common parlance. Anyways, I hope this relates to what you are speaking about.

No need to call a cab. On the contrary, you’re making so much sense it sounds like you need another scotch.

4:52 PM, March 25, 2009

 
Blogger thewalrus said...

Goose, thanks for your comments and the toast. The key, I think, is recognizing this human need for constructing meaning for our lives. As you said, the problem is when people universalize religion b/c they feel their particular way of constructing meaning must be the ONLY legitimate way. And I’m not just preaching some kind of weak tolerance here as I don’t have much stake in that (and I know you’re not preaching it either). It’s just quite amazing to think that we ever got the idea there was only one way to figure it all out. I find so little room in Christian communities for these kinds of questions (as kb poignantly noted above) and it’s unfortunate as there would be so many good people who would be willing to contribute to the overall health of the world through those communities, if only they were allowed to doubt and question and end up somewhere different.

5:05 PM, March 25, 2009

 
Blogger Thom Dawkins said...

Hey folks--

I've doing some clean-living lately, but I'll take a Miller's Lite, for ol' times sake. I'm going to take a little different approach here in the beginning, but I'll try to bring it all back around.

I've been paying a lot of attention to people I pass on the street lately--to their conversations (which are always unavoidable), their mannerisms, and other daily habits. And lately, I've found myself saddened by what I’ve seen and heard. On every city block, I inevitably find at least one person yelling at another person, sometimes in person and sometimes on their cell phone, but always someone who is in the midst of an argument. Of course, the argument is never constructive. I never hear, “I understand…” or even “I don’t understand, but I’m listening…” What I do hear is a lot of “you’re not listening to me…” and “no, let me tell YOU something…”

I’ve seen and heard so many of these conversations that I have to believe that there’s something universal about the experience. Everyone wants to be heard. Everyone wants to matter. Everyone wants to be understood.

Asking if God exists or how one is meant to worship the Divine is only constructive if you’re not looking for an answer. Whatever answer you come up with is valid, because you are a human seeking understanding, but it’s only valid as an idea and as an intuitive notion. Inevitably, you will be met by a differing opinion, which will likely negate your understanding simply by being different, and thus not entirely compatible, with your intuitive notion of Divine worship. Instead of wondering which is right, understand that neither can be correct, but that something can be learned by considering one in light of the other. The shared act of testing understanding or looking for meaning forms a bond that I believe to be more holy than anything we can imagine. In other words, the greater the access that we allow to our common humanity, the greater the access that we will have to the Divine.

What we have in common is that we all want to be heard, we all want to matter, and we all want to be understood. I personally have wasted a lot of time in trying to discern how/if we should worship, etc, when really I should have been paying attention to the fact that everyone is asking the same basic questions. That common questioning seems much more significant than any answers that I could make.

1:17 PM, March 27, 2009

 
Blogger thewalrus said...

lfw, I'll set a Lite on the counter for you and a shot of bourbon to make sure that clean living doesn't become spotless.

I found your thoughts to be profound in their wisdom and articulation. "The shared act of testing understanding or looking for meaning forms a bond that I believe to be more holy than anything we can imagine." In many ways, I think this goes to the heart of my post. If we can move past our need for positive theological affirmations and share in the searching process itself, it will be in that process that we experience something akin to divinity. I am thankful that I have friendships such as ours wherein I experience that very thing.

11:56 AM, March 30, 2009

 
Blogger thewalrus said...

Damn it, I almost forgot to problematize! :) Here's a thought that hit me on rereading your post. Do you think that our need for uniqueness makes us feel the need to separate ourselves from others (thus hindering us from opening to others and sharing in this journey)?

12:01 PM, March 30, 2009

 
Blogger Keith Brenton said...

I'm always getting in my own way, walrus ... for instance, I hang out at this virtual bar wearing my "Christian" nametag so I can be different but still feel a sense of kinship with people who are searching like I am, and if I went to church wearing it, people would laugh at me and no one would admit to searching because we've all found The Answer, right? and so what's the point of searching, and then they would say hey, I heard you were hanging out at a virtual bar and drinking Irish coffees without the whip so what's up with that, Keith? and I can't tell them there at church that I believe in God and I really like the guy but I gotta tell you there's a whole lotta the time that he just don't make right good sense, you know? (*burp*) sorry excuse me a couple of BushMills and Starbucks and I write in run-on sentences for days afterward cause I just can't handle my alcohol hey where am I at the bar again? oh

5:44 PM, April 01, 2009

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

you know me brother... Jack on the rocks (with a PBR on deck)! I was on my way over to my dad's this afternoon and for some reason I kept coming back to Christian AM Radio. Why in the world was I listening to this shit!?! I was wholly intrigued, however, by the heated debate that was going on. There was a very well-read evangelical who was bringing some heat upon the high-profile evangelicals. This radio evangelical was dishing it out to Rod Parsely and Joyce Meyer. He was 'accusing' their ministries of being too centralized around wealth-reversal. His point was (and I agree with him) that people should be concerned for each other and concerned for God; they should not be coming to the Divine in hopes of improving their income.

Here's my point: we have never and will never agree on what it means to be Christian. Shit, Catholics can't agree on Catholicism and evangelicals can't agree on Evangelicalism. The variegated milieu of religions and denominationalism has divided humanity to the point where we dont know who/what/why we worship anymore (if we could even agree that we need to worship). I do believe that God hates division; and yet, I feel like I have to break ranks with humanity to ask for unity. Something is amiss. I, unfortunately, feel like I am breaking ranks w/ "God's people" by advocating social service ministry above a half-million dollar organ or building project. The answer, for me, is in unity and love of neighbor. The answer is in improving our communities through social, health, and educational services. If the Christian right keeps voting against the reform of these sectors, I cannot help but ask is God truly in their camp? I already need another Jack. Pax, Chuck

7:05 PM, April 04, 2009

 
Blogger thewalrus said...

Welcome back Chuck. Jack and a PBR's ready for you. The division that you highlight between the focus of most Christian communities and those who seek community health/development is one that I've always found troubling. I mean, in many ways, that's one area where Christianity could shine in contrast to say, Buddhism, which has more difficulty articulating a philosophical emphasis on social justice. Over time, the inward turn in Xnty to personal salvation seems to have stripped its ability to focus on this well.

1:58 PM, April 06, 2009

 
Anonymous The Thrill said...

Afternoon everybody!

Pass the beer nuts, and set me up with whatever is hopping and will help me sleep tonight. These pretzels are making me thirsty!


I never really know where to chime in on the discussion. Some days I stroll in here cynical of all the cynicism, and others I'm thankful for the honesty and the fact that I know there's a seat where I can listen and be a part. Today I'm happy to be here.

As per the request of the Walrus, I toast to the extraordinary nature of hope, and the way it keeps us all plugging along. Cheers...

3:24 PM, April 10, 2009

 
Blogger Silas said...

Happy Easter everyone! I’ll take a Newcastle or whatever brown ale you’re serving. I’ve enjoyed listening to the conversations so far. Since this discussion started, I’ve been pondering what I would like to say and I don’t really have anything. I’m intrigued by the topic out of curiosity more than anything else. The issue’s not as important to me as it used to be, and I definitely don’t stay up at night thinking about it.

Writing music is a hobby of mine and I occasionally attempt to add lyrics, though with some difficulty. I was looking through some old songs I had written (from maybe 3 years ago) and there is a line in one song that goes like this.

“If I weren't scared that I'm going to die, then tonight I would resign.
If I could know what you know, then maybe I would try, but I don't know why.”

Although you can’t explicitly tell from that snippet, those lyrics reflect the feeling I had (at that point in my life) that believing in God and attempting to practice Christianity didn’t make a lot of sense. Either there was something I didn’t get (that firm believers did) or it was all bullshit. Still, believing in God was ingrained in me growing up so it was difficult to just stop.

That was then. I used to struggle with the “Does God exist?” question, because I wanted to answer “yes” and have meaning in my life. Maybe the real problem was my definition of “God” in the first place. The walrus has already articulated my similar feelings that the God of Western Christianity is not a God that I can believe because“…if that God is responsible for this world, something is profoundly fucked up.”

Over the years I have been able to fully convince myself that that God does not exist and on top of that probably no God does. There is a lot I don’t know, but I am content to believe that when we die, we rot, that’s the end. There are so many problems in this world that religion is a convenient way to ignore what we really should be doing.

2:25 PM, April 12, 2009

 
Blogger thewalrus said...

The Thrill, welcome back! It's been a while, my friend. I'm serving up some Koonunga Australian Shiraz for you as it's a good nightcap.

I hope you know you're always welcome to chime in here. Although I consider the conversations here rather heavy at times, which is why we should by all means supplement our conversations with drinks, I don't find it cynical, personally. To me it's kind of as you say - a place to be honest and listen and talk and know that whether you're having the best or the worst day of your life, you know thesecondchance is always open. I tend to gravitate towards some of the darker themes at times in hopes of striking up conversations here that you guys might not freely or regularly have elsewhere. So, with that said, always feel free to stroll in here with a pinata to spice up the mood a bit. I'll bless it by setting a couple fifths of tequila on the counter and we'll all join in and turn the word "misbehavior" into something not yet imagined. Cheers, brother.

1:00 AM, April 13, 2009

 
Blogger thewalrus said...

lb, not to worry, late trumps never. Newcastle is served.

When you refer to this previous point in your life, are you including December in that? Or did you suggest the topic out of curiosity more than anything else? Either is cool as it actually serves as a good springboard for my next post. I think it also helped me articulate perhaps a bit better some of my previous posts that have been perceived as bashing Christianity.

Like you, I am content with the end being the end as well, although I have no doubt that it will still be terrifying. Death is the ultimate "limit experience." My father will not be living much longer and grappling with death in close proximity is difficult enough.

Since you're a former student of mine, I'll push your last statement a bit. The use of the term "should" begs a few questions as it signifies a sense of "ought," as in some type of prescription for behavior. While I actually agree with you completely, I'm curious as to how you would describe what that means from your perspective.

1:18 AM, April 13, 2009

 
Blogger Silas said...

I thought this topic was important, even through December when I suggested we discuss it. It wasn't until you made this post (and I really had to think about) that I realized it doesn't matter that much to me. I guess it's similar to calling yourself a pacifist. You never really know until you're put in the situation, if you would fight or not.

I thought that you or someone might call me out on that last statement. I really have no clue what we should be doing or if we are really required to do anything at all.

I can't imagine what you and your family must be going through. Being faced with mortality, especially when a loved one is sick has got to be the scariest thing in the world. My heart goes out to you and your family.

11:04 PM, April 26, 2009

 
Blogger Flyfreak said...

Hey Brother, well, well, well. I finally get to the greatest blog page on the sinternet. Anyway, I really enjoy reading your misguided and ignorant trash.....sorry, that was another blog page I was on. Seriously, very thought provoking stuff. I am a firm believer in God and have also studied the Bible and world religions for for many-a-year. I also am like you in that I long for a life lived to the fullest including all the other mumbo-jumbo in your post. I enjoyed when you pitted atheism against Christianity and came up with an futile exercise in coin flipping. Anyway, that illustration is where I feel the true argument begins. FAITH. This is the foundation of every spiritual or philosophical way of life known to man. If you took a ten person cross section of our planet you would have ten different looking freaks, also ten different ways to achieve the ultimate orgasm, and ten different faith systems that lay a
foundation for their world life view. In essence, a persons life is a search for unlocking that faith that would drive them to the truth of the eternal question: Why are we here? The only thing intellect or logical study can do is lay a path that could help us find that truth. Well, I have wasted enough of everyone's time and you know I'll catch up with you elsewhere. Congratulations on the impending unclehood.

6:49 PM, May 24, 2009

 
Blogger thewalrus said...

flyfreak, welcome to thesecondchance! Sorry for the late response - I had company in town this past weekend so I went to my lady's cabin in the countryside with them for a few days.

You have wasted no one's time here with your thoughts, I assure you. Your shameful sin lies more in the fact that you entered thesecondchance without ordering a drink. Even if you're not into the strong shit, I can fully supply any non-alcoholic beverages as well. Regarding your post, I think we're in essential agreement. What you are calling "faith" seems to be what I am calling the basic human drive to construct meaning in our lives. I'll be addressing this more in my next post, which is far overdue but I plan to have it up in the next couple of days. Thanks so much for stopping in, you crazy bastard. See you at TL.

10:36 AM, May 27, 2009

 
Blogger stevepvc said...

This flyfreak fella's got some style.

10:46 AM, May 30, 2009

 

Post a Comment

<< Home

 
link to affordable web promotion page
Info on affordable web promotion service.