Where all are welcome but few call home...

Wednesday, March 02, 2005

Why It Matters

I sincerely appreciate all of your comments on the threads. If I have overlooked anyone, please let me know. This blog takes more work than what I originally thought, but I must say that I am enjoying the discussions so far.

In the last major post, I discussed the concept of the church having become "extinct" and how it should potentially respond to such a situation. I used an excerpt from Bonhoeffer because I feel his comments are profoundly prophetic. But there are a few things I think all of you should understand about me before we proceed. First, my rhetoric in these posts is harsh, abrasive, and even offensive at times. But what you must realize is that, first, this is bar talk, and second, it really is the way I express myself with these matters, believe it or not. This weblog in many ways is a true representation of who I am and what I represent right now. For those who know me, this most assuredly contradicts the pleasant walrus with whom you are accustomed to engaging. But I assure you, I am not creating a personality here. This is who I am. More importantly, this is precisely where I am supposed to be right now, and that's all that matters. I offer no apologies and I hold no regrets. In Luther's words, Here I stand. Second, in order to properly engage these issues, you must take that into consideration. In other words, just let me be a voice that speaks to you. Where I am or where you think I am or where you think I should be should not take away from the fact that what I'm saying is something worth hearing. If you do not engage what I'm saying for what it is (and not just what it is coming from me, or your idea of me), then you're wasting your time. I'm inviting you to this bar to sit down, have a drink, and chat. I'm not looking for any of you to express concern or love for me because I really don't care about that right now. What I do care about and expect, however, is that when you walk in the door to thesecondchance, you respect me for who I am. I will never ask that you like or approve of who or where I am. What I will require, however, is that you respect it.

Some of you have told me, directly or indirectly, that my profanity and offensive rhetoric are unnecessary. But please, please, please hear me out guys. You're walking into a bar. What do you really expect? What is happening here is a microcosmic example of what is happening in the church. If you disrespect me by giving too much notice to the "offensive" side of me rather than what I'm saying, then you will never reach me. And if you can't reach me, believe me, you won't even come close to reaching the others outside the church who are where I am but don't have the theological background and training that I do. This is really what it's all about, folks. You must find a way to LET GO of your inhibitions, LET GO of your personal understanding of morality, LET GO of your understanding of what people should be, and LET GO OF WHAT YOU THINK IT MEANS TO BE CHRISTIAN. I don't mean throw it out. Just let it go. You think God's not big enough and powerful enough for you to answer such basic questions? You think He can't handle you questioning these things, even if they're seemingly offensive? Well, then what kind of God do you believe in? Certainly not the God depicted in Scripture. It's like the story of Job. God didn't punish them for asking questions. He just reminded them that He was the person who gave them that capability in the first place. Again, it's all about respect. Like it or not, but respect is and will be the "social currency" at thesecondchance.

I say all of this to demonstrate why the Bonhoeffer post matters. Read it again. Don't read it as me saying it. Read it for what it says. And read my comments in the threads that help explain it. And for God's sake, post some comments! I'm not trying to just start a "bitch" session here and rave against the church. I couldn't care less about that. I'm trying to speak from where I am and truly ask those of you in the church to "wake the fuck up" because I (and my friends) really don't care right now. Really. We have no reason to because no one's listening and no one's bothering to ask the hard questions in the hard way. The church is too concerned with "self-preservation" (DB) and not with "self-emptying" (somewhere in Philippians?). Show us that you care and we might decide to care, if just for the company. And you should take this with all seriousness. IF YOU DON'T DEMONSTRATE THAT YOU CARE, NO ONE ELSE WILL EITHER, INCLUDING ME. How do you do that? Let go, engage the issues, allow yourself to be questioned by people like E, allow yourself to be ripped in half by the questions that haunt you, and most of all, show it. Show your vulnerability but stand up and be proud of your strength within it. Because if Christ truly is Lord, then you have nothing to lose, nothing to fear, and the respect of the world to gain...and, speaking as someone who has earned it, let me tell you, there is no better feeling, no greater acknowledgement, and no higher honor than that. If the Church learns that basic fact, it will once again have something to say. It will rediscover its true calling. It will, indeed, live again.

33 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

I understand what you are saying about allowing yourself to be "ripped in half by the questions that haunt you", although not exactly on the same terms. There are many questions that are haunting me at this point in my life, and I'm not quite sure how to deal with them. My questions may not be as specific as whether the church is exctinct or not, but I have them nonetheless.

3:22 PM, March 02, 2005

 
Blogger 2coopers said...

yo thewalrus,
thanks for making us all feel welcome at thesecondchance...i have a few things that i am wondering...
1. do you really not care if others love or show concern for you? i find that hard to believe, mainly because of my own selfishness and desire to be loved and shown concern

2. do you think that our morality should be more how we try to imitate God and if so how can one let go of that?

3. can you get a video link of the apple shove up and running?

later, 2coopers

4:17 PM, March 02, 2005

 
Blogger thewalrus said...

longhorn,

I hope you feel free to pose some of those questions here. I, and others, may not have answers or even have much to say to it but we'll at least buy you a drink and chat about it. Also, allow those questions to continue to haunt. Just don't let them control you. Let them speak but not control.

6:16 PM, March 02, 2005

 
Blogger thewalrus said...

2coopers,

Answers to your questions in order.

1)When I say that I don't care, I mean something specific. It doesn't mean that I don't appreciate or greatly value that love. I just mean that at this point that love is threatening to get in the way of respect; and if that happens, it backfires and weakens the love. Love is built on respect. In other words, I know there are some who read this blog and think, "Aww, I really hate it that thewalrus is struggling right now. He must be having a rough time, bless his heart. He can't really mean what he's saying," and stuff like that. While I appreciate the concern and blessing, it disrespects what I'm actually saying because it "writes it off" as just personal issues. I hope that better describes my statement.

2. When I say "let go of your personal understanding of morality," I'm talking about our traditional perception of what it means to be moral. You know, a Christian must speak a certain way, act a certain way, wear certain things, refrain from certain things, etc. While some of this is true, we need to let go of some of them because our "moral standards" are preventing us from hearing those who don't meet up to them. And a lot of the time, our standards aren't really right anyway.

3. I'll need to get a digital camera before that's possible. I think I've only done it once in the past couple of years. I may need some practice!

6:25 PM, March 02, 2005

 
Blogger stevepvc said...

Walrus, just so you know, I totally do love and respect you.

I do take seriously the things you post here and on my blog. I'm challenged by them and scratch my head for days...and that's a good thing.

8:41 PM, March 02, 2005

 
Blogger Unknown said...

I've been watching this blog recently. And finally, after your pleas for attention and need for my super powers (even though it's just a cool cape I wear. Plus a damn cool utility belt!) I'll make some comments.
Count me in on the Bonhoeffer discussion. Give me a little bit to get caught up on previous posts.
Until then,
Batman

10:45 PM, March 02, 2005

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

How the hell do you expect us to LET GO. This Christianity thing is so ingrained in us, at least in me ( no disrespect for those who don't feel this way), that I feel that what you are asking us to do is impossible. I really don't think that the Church is as bad as you say it is. I see the hypocrisy and the blatant misuse of scripture and even, how shall I put it, the f$#@$% up way that many people portray the Church; but I still find it very useful and a rejuvenating part of my life. Even though this may sound cynical, I don't know where I'd be without it.
Hope this brings on a comment or two.
Peace.!

12:45 AM, March 03, 2005

 
Blogger thewalrus said...

batman,

I eagerly await your superpower endeavors into the Bonhoeffer post. If you've got the cape, then you are the man. But if you've got the belt, then I owe you a shot. Cheers.

2:33 AM, March 03, 2005

 
Blogger thewalrus said...

bird dog,

Man, I tell you, the names we come up with... Welcome to the secondchance. It seems like I get a couple new patrons every day.

Thanks for keeping up with things and for posting. You said, "if we are to be imitator's of Christ we must use the same levl of respect that he used when dealing with people and the church. I guess some of the comments made in reference to Christ really seem disrepectful reguardless of how honest we are with ourselves. I have a hard time believing, based on Christ's example, that he would refer to his father in these same terms." I'm not sure if you're pointing this criticism towards me, but I will assume that you are, which is of course perfectly fine and welcomed. If that is the case, I'm not sure how I'm treating people different than Christ did. I feel that so far I have done the same. I know that some of my comments can be perceived as disrespectful and I find that unfortunate; in reality, I mean all of my comments with the deepest of respect, however vulgar and offensive they may seem. I'm using societal quips and phrases to express my opinion, which just so happens to be (now) the way I actually express my opinion. I'm not sure what you mean by referring to his Father in the same terms. I'm just not sure what you're referring to here at all.

I will fully admit, and have from the start, that I am wholly and completely part of the problem. I'm not doing anything to help right now. I have it easy b/c of that. I can offer criticism without offering help...which is precisely why I'm sending out a plea for you to give me a reason to care. That's the reason why I'm not helping right now. I'm convinced no one really cares about this stuff. So why should I?
So, your criticism here is accepted and duly noted. But please understand, I'm desperately asking for someone, even you perhaps, to tell me why I should care. I really can't speak more honestly than that.

Thanks for your post.

2:50 AM, March 03, 2005

 
Blogger thewalrus said...

Goldfishb,

First of all, nothing is impossible. Second, I’m not trying to say the church is “bad”, only that it has become irrelevant. I do not wish to take away from (at all) your (or anyone else’s) positive experiences in the church. I have had many positive experiences myself. I’m not saying that the church just sucks and everybody in it are hypocrites, etc. I’m saying that we have simply become blinded to our situation in our culture. We have become irrelevant (for the most part in spite of ourselves). So, I want to affirm what the church has done for you and everyone else. I hold a deep respect and love for the church, believe it or not. But this is precisely the reason why I have opted out -- I’m convinced it has failed, I’m not willing to help it, and I’m looking for others to give me a reason to do so.

If this helps, I consider one of my great “curses” in life to be my love for the church. It follows me around and I can’t get rid of it. I’ve tried. So, this is why I’m sending out my pleas and staying up late at night to talk about this stuff. As badass as I might talk and seem, I'm depending on you to show me something. And like I said in the post, there's a whole lot at stake here, and it has both little and everything to do with me.

3:02 AM, March 03, 2005

 
Blogger thewalrus said...

bird dog,

My posts/comments are always a bit loopy so, no worries. I have a couple thoughts in response. When you speak of Christ being "offensive," are you saying he was employing a particular missional strategy? Or are you saying he was offensive b/c that's simply the way he expressed it? I think the latter might be the case. But I obviously have no idea. I can only speak for myself here.

I'm still a bit confused as to what you mean by "in reference to his Father." Are you saying that I'm using derogatory references to God the Father? If so, where? I'm only speaking of Christ in this passage. Maybe my comments about God in the Why It Matters post? I don't know. Anyways, my "balls" statement here was actually meant to be a statement of profound respect. I explained in some other comment thread that I'm not questioning Christ's masculinity (although I'm confident he doesn't care about that anyway) but rather making a statement concerning his power (which in our culture is most often understood in masculine terms). In other words, Christ is willing to let his greatest love endure the pain of admitting failure and "dying" so to speak, if that's what it takes to make her become who she needs to be.

1:48 PM, March 03, 2005

 
Blogger thewalrus said...

papa bear,

Welcome to thesecondchance. Ahh, cerveza lover! Maybe we can convert you to some Irish whiskey as well.

In terms of the "let go" stuff: You must be referring to the "let go and let God" phrase when you say cliche. That's not so much the direction I'm going here. I'm just trying to say that our beliefs, morality, even our very understanding of what it means to be Christian are easily (and unwittingly) idolized and keep us from being able to see and do certain things. We hold our beliefs so close to us because they're safe; they protect us from the unknown. I just think that we need to find a way to let them go and not be afraid to do so.

2:14 PM, March 03, 2005

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

man, you guys are hogging all the good juice. Everytime I try to call for a shot, somebody either busts in the door, or happy hour ends...what's a guy to do?

I'm really still trying to figure out which brew to go for, so keep calling new drinks, I'll see one I like in a minute. For now, I'll have a water.

Walrus, I give the respect. I surely do think the church is in need of some shaking. You seem to think the doldrums we are in now are different than those of any other time. Why do you make this distinction. I think a clarification here will help me in this discussion. Also, how do you think the church should fit in culture, or can it be above culture (if this is totally away from what you mean, ok, just clarify for me.)

Finally, you want to know why you should care? What do you mean. Do you think you will care if the church is reformed? I tend to think that the reason you should care is, in part, outside of this discussion of the churches flaws. Do you want to care about discipleship, or the church, or God...I'm still unclear?



BTW: I like the tunes tonight...who is that throwing down such a tight beat?

4:57 PM, March 03, 2005

 
Blogger Keith Brenton said...

Oh, bar talk, huh? Does that include bar jokes? Like, "A guy walked into a bar. He said 'Ouch!' and fell unconscious on the floor. It was an iron chin-up bar."

Hey, thewalrus, no apologies needed. It's your bar. Say what you want to say. Use the language you want to use.

Those of us who don't drink and don't use unpunctuated descriptive phrases will eventually wake up, shake our heads, get off the floor and join in the conversation at the bar.

Blog on!

And make mine a Shirley Temple. I gotta drive home.

6:49 PM, March 03, 2005

 
Blogger thewalrus said...

thrill,

Well, it all depends on whether you want to go the beer route, the liquor route, the cocktail route, etc. In terms of beer, I'd go with a Harp or Guinness (Irish all the way, baby). If you want to do a shot, go with Jameson or Wild Turkey. Mixed drinks...well, let's go with a margarita or gin and tonic. But we do have the good old H2O as well. But just a side note -- toasting with water might raise a few eyebrows.

I like the DJ too...but she won't tell me her name or what she's playing or her phone number...damn it! I need to talk to my entertainment coordinator or something.

In terms of your distinction question, I think that in the past century, the church has grown irrelevant to greater and greater degrees. I'm not convinced the church has found itself in quite this type of situation before. But regardless, I still think the church must assess where it is now.
I don't know if I'm really answering your question but I'm not sure what your looking for specifically.

I don't think the church can ever be above culture as I don't really think anything can be. But I do think the church needs to live fully within its culture while maintaining a critical posture towards it.

The reason I want to know why I should care is because, to be honest, I became too tired of being the only one who seemingly did care and therefore I just stopped wasting my time doing it. It didn't seem to be getting me anywhere. I want to care about discipleship, the church, and God. I really do. But the question is: is it worth it? A lot of this is extremely personal for me so I don't want to get into it too much but I will say that there is a need for those in the church to demonstrate first, that they care, and second, why they do. Because, as of now, I have more reasons not to care than I have reasons to care. I know this is confusing but I'm just trying to ask those in the church to do some serious introspection about all of this...because there's a whole lot riding on it.

11:34 PM, March 03, 2005

 
Blogger thewalrus said...

kb,

Welcome to the secondchance. Thanks for the recognition and the thumbs up. I hope that you will continue to comment in the future. I'm interested in what you have to say.

So, Shirley Temple it is...but bring a dd next time so you can drink!

11:39 PM, March 03, 2005

 
Blogger thewalrus said...

system,

Sorry, I now see that I never responded to you. Thanks. I'm glad that you have been thinking through all of this deeply, as have I. Let's hope it gets us somewhere.

11:41 PM, March 03, 2005

 
Blogger thewalrus said...

hobbes,

Welcome back - I was wondering where you went. How was the move?

I appreciate and respect your honesty in all your posts. I'm seeing a side of you I've never seen (and I'm pretty confident the reverse is true).

Your respect is seen and understood. I have a few questions for you.

When you say you are too weak to "get it all" and too weak to give me what I'm asking, what do you mean? Because how I respond to these statements all depends on what you mean. And I do want to respond.

Yes, I guess you could say that only God is capable of the truest respect. But keep in mind that all I'm asking for here is simple respect.

Let me put this in simple terms (and by "you" I'm not referring specifically to you). If I punch you, I expect you to punch back, nothing less. As friends we will fight things out, and in the end I will buy you a drink. But if you walk away then you are disrespecting me b/c you're saying that my fight isn't worth fighting. Sure, the judge of the fight (God) is the only one capable of assigning true respect but if you're not even there to fight, then there is no respect to give and why would I even bother? I simply expect those who come into my bar to talk to me. If I'm going to buy you a drink and talk to you, then you better not walk away w/o saying anything b/c that's outright disrespect. I know this is a strange analogy but it's simply what comes to mind.

For whatever it's worth, keep struggling through all of this, with or without me.

1:47 AM, March 04, 2005

 
Blogger thewalrus said...

hobbes,

It's not so much that I need someone to "walk, struggle, and care" with me or that my interest in these things is fully based on other people. Sure, it's a lonely road to walk but I'm more interested in someone just demonstrating that they care about these things, not just for me, but for the sake of the world. The only reason I'm asking you to care in relation to me is b/c you're in my bar and I see it as a test of sorts. If you can relate to me, you're on the right track. If you don't, it merely confirms how I've been thinking about all of it.

I don't really understand why you're saying that God is the only one who can "fulfill needs" and that "only Christ can give a reason to follow." You know that I already know these things.

Please hear me out clearly here. I fully see, appreciate, and understand your concern for me in the above comment. I really do. But saying these things comes across as somewhat patronizing. I know that's not what you intend, believe me. But those like me who are in my position already know the "theological answers" you're giving. Again, I'm not looking for answers to these issues. I'm looking for you to come in and sit down, drink, chat, and then go tell your friends about this wierd guy who brought up some interesting concerns about the church. That's where it starts.

Whether I care or not is ultimately my decision and is not contingent upon you. But the reason I stated things the way I did is because I'm essentially not the person to carry the burden for. It's the others like me but who aren't as well equipped as I am to work through spiritual/theological issues that you need to be concerned about. Therein lies the mission of the church.

2:16 PM, March 04, 2005

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

thewalrus, I don't get it. You are trying to create an atmosphere where all comments and opinions are welcomed and even encouraged no matter how harsh. So, when did it start to be okay for our opinions to now be referred to as patronizing? Just a question, not an attack. If you are trying to get Hobbes to dig deeper ask him, don't manipulate him.

4:10 PM, March 04, 2005

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

yo wal-ly baby, i think i got tanked on that water...what kinda place you runnin?

Well, 2 cents here on the tone of this discussion. It seems like its easy to take some stuff personal here, and that's ok. In fact if we dont, i think we lose the respect you were calling for. So, for disclosure sake, I take it personal when the church is critiqued, as most of us I assume, b/c our life and vocation is to build the church. Criticism, even the constructive sort, goes personal real fast, and I think that's ok. It bugs me that people tell me not to take things personally. I think what they mean is, "dont overreact", which is fair. But, to show you the love here you want, I take it personally. Congrats on hitting that nerve. I pledge, however, to not overreact. I (we) need the critique, so keep it flowing. We also need to know that the criticism is constructive, which I think you also intend. I know its God's church, but I've got a lot vested in it (the church) being faithful. To quote another mo-town great, "sock it to me, sock it to me, sock it to me...".

You said that you didnt know that it was worth it...I'm real suspicious about this. You think its worth it, or you would be blogging on a spot about drinking somewhere (um...nevermind). What do you mean by you want to know if its worth it? Do you mean is it worth the cost? worth the discipline? worth the mediocrity? worth doing it alone? I wonder those things too, and am probably too scared to be too honest about it. I'm sure between the parishoners here tonight we could come up with a couple of hundred examples from the prophets and early church to speak on perseverence. But that seems to get away from what we were discussing, and back to the conversation about the problems with the institutional church. The quandry I'm in here is that I cant separate my questions about perseverance from the wheel spinning that the church does. Must we persevere in this flawed existance, or can we get on a new track. You are proposing that we find a new track.

You should also know that I usally come to the bar to listen, not to talk. I'm really trying not to give you leading questions, but i normally lead with questions.

I dont know what God's body should look like. from your vantage, is it really beyond reform?

5:47 PM, March 04, 2005

 
Blogger thewalrus said...

Wow, I almost started a barfight with the last comment. I can't comment now b/c I have to go meet some friends at the pool hall. I will respond to your questions/concerns later tonight. Man, this place gets rowdy sometimes when I try to leave and get sober...

7:53 PM, March 04, 2005

 
Blogger thewalrus said...

anonymous,

Gotta give me a name buddy before I'll buy you a shot. Even if it's like, nolongeranonymous.

My response to hobbes was not meant to be manipulative at all -- please explain how it could be so. My patronizing comment was not meant at all to be a cheap shot. His response to you is actually right on target. To me it was a representation of how empty those words and phrases are to those on the outside. I don't question their validity at all. I think they're probably true. They just don't mean anything to those on the outside. They "sound" condescending whether they are intended that way or not. As I will say in my next comment to hobbes, I never thought for once that he was trying to be patronizing, only that his words "came across" that way by their phrasing.

I'm not quite sure where I went wrong here. Please elaborate. Just keep in mind that all comments are indeed welcome, but that doesn't mean they can't be questioned, does it?

4:04 AM, March 05, 2005

 
Blogger thewalrus said...

hobbes and thrill,

I ran out of time last night and now I'm off to work. I'll respond asap. Come on bama.

3:06 PM, March 05, 2005

 
Blogger stevepvc said...

Walrus! Bama came through today, baby!

everybody-
Okay, I'm really confused about what the core of this thread is about. It seems to have gone from affirming some sort of commonality to discussing whether or not the walrus should (or does) care about the church. this is in great part due to his polemical language, if you ask me. (walrus, before you get fired up, that doesn't mean I think you don't mean what you say)

7:03 PM, March 05, 2005

 
Blogger thewalrus said...

system,

I know what you're saying. Having to address the personal issue in the posts took off in its own direction.

Where do you want to go with it?

1:35 AM, March 06, 2005

 
Blogger thewalrus said...

hobbes,

O.k., I'll say this again. I really don't think you were trying to be patronizing and I wasn't "calling you out" for your response. I was simply making a point and demonstrating that for someone on the outside, like me, those words are received in very strange ways. This is not a dis on you at all. If anything, it is merely symptomatic of where I am. So, you're cool dude. No offense taken.

It's not so much that I'm telling you not to care about me. It's just that first, that's not what I'm looking for (although I greatly appreciate it, I do) and second, I just don't want it to get in the way of hearing what I'm trying to say. I'm your friend, you care for me, I understand, respect, and appreciate that, more than you know. The mere fact that you've spent so much time in my bar, letting me buy you drinks, and talking with me is evidence of that.

And in terms of theological understanding and my abilities there. Sure, I have it, but I don't give 2 shits about it right now so don't feel outpaced or intimidated. As falsely humble as this may sound, I really am just a restaurant server right now. Most people at work would never guess that I have a master's degree in theology. I just am who I am. I know my rhetoric is very arrogant at times but I do not intend for it to ever make others inferior. I have no need for that. And I don't see you as inferior either, at all.

In terms of worldly discipleship.
I'm not sure I have a clear description. Maybe I should find a Bonhoeffer passage that better describes it. Give me some time and I'll work on it.

2:10 AM, March 06, 2005

 
Blogger thewalrus said...

thrill,

In terms of it being "worth it," yes I'm speaking of the cost primarily. Where does caring about those things take you? I know where it's taken me...which is precisely why I feel the way I do about it. I resent it.

I don't know what God's body should look like either. In terms of reform, well, I don't think it's forever doomed if that's what you're saying. But I do think its current mode of being is possibly beyond reform.

Let me know if I need to explain further.

2:24 AM, March 06, 2005

 
Blogger thewalrus said...

I'm glad you're reading Bonhoeffer. I've had a couple of other people tell me they ordered some of his books. Reading especially Letters and Papers (and Ethics) will help understand some of my thoughts.

12:36 AM, March 07, 2005

 
Blogger thewalrus said...

loki,

I have my suspicions on who you are now. Guinness it is, my friend.

Your thoughts brought something to mind. Is the "world" doing a better job of accomplishing these "life-actions" than the church? If so, well...enough said, I guess.

12:40 AM, March 07, 2005

 
Blogger thewalrus said...

loki,

I wish I had a nice profound critical response to your comments but I'm too much in agreement here. You worded it better than I could. I salute you. Keep commenting though so people won't think I'm the only crazy one around here. Well, I guess eskimofriend's helping out with that one some...

3:32 AM, March 11, 2005

 
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