Damn, That Was Easy
Well, point taken and proven I guess. You guys make it too easy for me. It seems that I have far too easily demonstrated the irrelevance of the church in the modern world. For those who disagree...well, what have you got to say? I've tried to pick a fight several times on this damn blog and no one's up to the task. So, I guess it's time to move on to bigger and better or at least more relevant things. In the words of the beloved Michael Moore, “shame on you.” Or, perhaps, shame on me. I get my hopes up sometimes only to find myself confirmed in my initial suspicions. The church as it is now is a lost cause, folks. All I’ve ever asked is that you just do something, for the love of God. Give it up, prove me wrong, or at least tell me to go to hell because, as far as this blog is concerned (which isn't very far, let me assure you), I've single-handedly proven that your church has absolutely nothing left to say. So, take that or leave it but, for God’s sake, don’t stay where you are b/c it’s not doing much for relating to those like me. Well, I’ve beaten a dead horse...at least I can say that.
But I’ll say more. Stay tuned b/c in the very near future I will post something new. I’ve been delaying b/c I’m slightly apprehensive about this particular post, for a variety of reasons. One of them is that it’s a bit personal so I’m trying to find the right way to approach it. It’s all about riding that fine line between vulnerability and risking the loss of someone’s respect due to misunderstanding. Luck, sometimes, is all that it comes down to. Hope you guys had a great weekend.
posted by thewalrus at 12:17 AM
12 Comments:
i am a little surprised by the heckle that has been given...just a little..
I never once remember Christ saying "take up your cross and follow those people down at the synagogue" or "no one comes to the Father except by those imperfect church-goers" . I understand thewalrus and the frustrations but i know that there are lot of people who find a lot of relevence in the church only because of Christ. I find relevence in the church because of Christ not because of the jerks trying to be like Christ. When I have been discouraged most in my life, it has been when I have tried to follow the goobs in the church and not Christ.
When I was frustrated with the local church that I grew up in about 10 years ago I remember having a conversation with my dad. I expressed to him my frustrations about how the church we were attending was a far cry from the church I read about in the Bible. I was hacked off at the elders and just annoyed at the general way that things were going there. At the time of this conversation my dad had been resigned from "deacon" for about 5 years or so and I never really knew why until this conversation. He told me that if anything was going to be done, that you just had to do it yourself, not go to the elders for approval and support, just do it. And i guess that was a changing time in my life. Whatever that is worth, relevant or not, there you go...later, 2coopers
10:12 PM, March 21, 2005
hobbes,
First of all, I want to thank you for taking the time to comment. All of your comments are taken with the greatest of respect and I see these as nothing less. I finally got somebody to wrestle with me some. Thanks.
Response to your first comment above (in numbers):
2. You said, "Apathy towards this blog does not equate with the irrelevance of the church in the modern world." Damn, that sucks...I was trying at least. Why d'ya want to go out tryin to deflate my ego, huh?
3. There's a world outside of thesecondchance? Shit, I need a vacation...
4. You said, "Disagreement with the walrus does not equate with apathy/disrespect." You're absolutely right. If that were the case, I wouldn't be trying so desperately to find people who disagree with me...or who will at least say they do. I fully realize the melodramatic nature of my post when it comes to this. But there is definitely an element of absolute seriousness undergirding it. I'm just trying to get people to open up and talk about it and it was like everybody suddenly disappeared from the conversation. I'm not looking to win arguments here at all, although that's what I believe is being perceived. I just want people to be honest and talk, that's all.
Response to next comment coming up.
11:56 PM, March 21, 2005
Walrus,
Sorry to interupt, but I have two words to say to you: tub girl? I was just curious if you saw it.
12:29 AM, March 22, 2005
hobbes,
I will definitely say that your description of me is a bit oversimplified but no worries. We'll work with what you have.
I recognize that there are those in the church who are faithful and others who aren't. It has always been that way and always will. But that's not the source of my critique. The problem lies with what what the church says vs. what the church does. And this is twofold: they're not only not doing what they say but they're also not even correctly saying what they should do. I think the church's response to the current war is a good example of this problem. Essentially what I'm saying is that if the church isn't going to make the necessary changes it needs to make to embody Christ's teaching and life, then it needs to stop pretending to do so (and be open about it). The church has lost its tongue, which is one of the reasons why I say it's a lost cause. I used the inflammatory language here but I meant it more along the lines of it being lost as in confused, disoriented, and without a sense of direction. But I also think that it will be a lost cause (in the common usage) if people don't start addressing these issues.
Concerning the girl in the paper: Well, it's not really the same and here's why. To call the girl's experience "limited" really makes no difference to her. The only thing she has to work with is what experience she has had. And the experiences that she has been through have caused her to distrust any new experiences that are seemingly different. She's been burned and doesn't want to make herself vulnerable. And whether I'm the best, most faithful guy on this planet makes no difference to her until she experiences me being that way. Was she wrong about me being "just another asshole"? Absolutely. But was she wrong in assuming that I would be? Absolutely not. Because that's what her experience has taken her and she must deal with it in the best way possible to protect herself. While it may suck to be in my position, I don't blame her at all for feeling that way. So, the real question is, how do I respond? By continuing to say those things over and over in hopes of convincing her differently? No. Instead, the only thing I can do is actually live it out in my life and embody commitment, respect, love, etc. (Btw, this whole example thing is funny b/c I never actually started dating this girl. It was just kind of one of those meta-dating conversations you have beforehand to feel the other one out.)
"I think the walrus would do well to listen to those who are saying they have witnessed the relevance of the church." You're right. Which is precisely why I've been begging people to talk to me about it. I want to know how people feel about it but I'm just having a hard time getting them to open up.
Thanks again for your comments.
12:32 AM, March 22, 2005
lb,
Yes, and I'm traumatized as well. I have no words...
12:33 AM, March 22, 2005
2coopers,
I also think that the source of the church's relevance must come from Christ. But there is a degree to which Christ depends on the church to continue his witness. He is gone now and it's up to the church to continue his witness. If it doesn't do so, then it has kept the world from seeing his relevance. Make sense? Thanks for your comments.
But, come on, were ya really surprised at the heckle?
12:38 AM, March 22, 2005
walrus,
its me again and yes i should be in bed
so back to the girl in the paper...if you lived out what you said you would (faithrul,loving,trustworthy,etc) and she still would not trust and open up, does the blame fall on her or you?
i realize i am being annoying in the asking of this question...
12:41 AM, March 22, 2005
walrus,
I am missing your reply before i post here...so..
yes that does makes sense to me but I am not sure that it makes sense to those who need Christ?
i am not sure what I meant by that maybe you can help me there
12:45 AM, March 22, 2005
2coopers,
Well, I didn't actually start dating her (which is a good thing) and so her actually experiencing that part of me never happened. But if I had, it wouldn't really be a matter of blame. My concern would be with me. I can only do what I can do. If she doesn't accept it, that's her choice, but I wouldn't say it's her "fault" so to speak. But I would have at least given her good options.
Yeah I think those who are outside of the church can understand what I said if that's what we start speaking and living.
1:01 AM, March 22, 2005
hobbes,
The church's voice is heard both through individuals and through the institution itself. Part of the problem is that there doesn't seem to be an adequate continuity between them. So, yes, the individuals are important, vitally, but without the church making some type of statement itself then the witness of the individuals has a greater potential of being lost.
I think you picked up on the bad connotation of pretend that I didn't intend. I'm certainly not saying they're intentionally faking something. But they are claiming to be something that they currently are not and that's a problem. I guess I'm just not willing to settle with "we're trying" as enough. Maybe I'm asking too much, I don't know. But again, it goes deeper than a mere failure of being good disciples.
2:00 AM, March 22, 2005
eskimofriend,
Response by points:
1)I'm not sure what you mean by the vulnerability stuff. The Vandy paper is one of the most vulnerable papers I've ever written for such a public setting. In fact, that's one of the reasons why I was hesitant to post it. I had a bit of fear that I would post it and everybody would just suddenly vanish w/o saying anything. Which is kind of what happened. But like I said to Hobbes above, I was being melodramatic on purpose to elicit response. And yet there was an undergirding seriousness to the whole thing. I do often try to taunt people into a discussion, if for no other reason than to just be an ass sometimes. But to be honest, I have more interest in losing this particular argument than winning it. That's exactly why I posted the last post.
2)See my comments above on melodrama. There's only 5 people who read this blog? Damn...
3)This is a good point and I'm glad you made it. I think one of the differences in doing those things today is that we can do those things without them really affecting our lives. We can just write a check to the church, have them give it to the local orphanage, and come back to our suburban lives. There is of course something to be said for even doing that. But this kind of discipleship in my opinion is a far cry from the kind of radical discipleship I read about in the Sermon on the Mount, etc.
Whatever happened to you giving me hints as to who you are? I appreciate you taking the time to post, even if I pissed you off a bit. I've got a feeling that a lot of people are going to say the next round is on me just for the taunting.
11:38 AM, March 22, 2005
hobbes,
Dude, you're the blogging pimp.
In terms of the fragmented church, dante has much to speak to this. He just wrote a paper addressing this very issue. I'll see if he'd be willing to send it to you.
I agree that the nature of the incarnation is found in relationships. But these relationships also have to be given context and without the institution of the church, they cannot be given full meaning. So, sure, individual proclamation (preferably through living more than speech) is vitally important but the institutional proclamation is as well. The religious right has exploited this particular avenue of communication and we need to do something about it. But I won't get started on those guys.
I'm really not looking for a standard of perfection. The Sermon on the Mount, for example, would qualify enough for that. But the issue is that we're not so much even trying to be those things anymore. We've re-written much of those ethics so we can appear more American than Christian. But I'm not looking for a perfect church at all. I'm just looking for people who care that that should be the standard.
The reason why I think the church is dead as we know it is because changes on an individual level won't fix all the problems, in my opinion. The sickness has thoroughly infected the church and it needs to be completely re-evaluated.
In terms of courses of action for the future, I don't have the answers here. I think what I said earlier (concerning Bonhoeffer) about "shutting down" the church so to speak, and using prayer and righteous action will help us find some of those answers. I wish I could help more with this but I'm also one looking for answers. So, I'm not sure I do have a better view of what the church should look like.
Hope you have a safe trip and enjoy your Spring Break. How come I don't get one of those?!? Thanks for your time and comments.
12:01 PM, March 22, 2005
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