Closet Talk
Well, I just got through reading a novel dealing (indirectly) with the issue of gays in the military. Since my background and (ever-so-resented) expertise lies in the field of theology, I thought I would throw out some things for you guys to ponder, affirm and/or dispute.
One thing the author mentioned in the novel is that we never complain that homosexuals pay taxes but we get red in the face over them serving in the military. He's right - they can support their country all day long by giving money but if they want to lay down their life for their country in a public fashion then they better do it hetero-style. In other words, as long as you stay in that closet, you can slide as many checks under the door as you like. We'll promise to make good use of it. There's always Iraq to concern us.
Well, let's see. The church's responsibility is to provide an alternative politics, an alternative way of relating to one another. Paul's "neither Jew nor Greek, neither slave nor free, nor male nor female, you are all one" comment surely encourages Christians to abide by some type of ethos that demands a lack of recognition of categories that desperately attempt to simplify the omnipresent gray into an easy black-and-white. I've been outside of the church for some time now and yet I still see it fighting some type of war against these heathen human beings who are trying to introduce "unnatural sex" into God's family. Well, pardon me while I ask, but what the hell is "natural sex" anyway? (Not to mention, per dante, why God would ever care in the first place). Anybody who has ever had prolonged sexual relations with someone knows damn well that little about it ever just comes "naturally." It's (as it should be) a work in progress that requires effort and attention to become a true work of art. And that's not even mentioning the more pertinent theological fact that the world in general is so fucking "unnatural" that at some point we might just realize that maybe, just maybe, that's why we have the story of Jesus Christ coming in the first place? To grace the ungraceful. And yet it seems all the church ever does publicly is dis-grace.
I'm trying not to sound too angry here b/c I'm actually a relatively content person. But, for God's sake (literally), can't we get our heads on straight about this stuff? I mean, yes, it took us a while to get to the point where we considered other races to be equally human (which now seems so antiquated to all of us) but should it be taking us this long to see the same with sexual orientation?
And I grew up in Alabama, folks, so don't think this ever came easy to me. I don't sport rainbows, I don't go tanning, I don't watch Desperate Housewives (sorry, had to do it), and I don't drink apple martini's (or anything that has unrecognizable colors and begs for an umbrella and a cherry) but I'll blow up your house, seduce your girlfriend, and add your ass to my (non-existent) trophy collection if you say a cross word to my bi or gay friends. Why? Because they're my friends. Period. I really don't give two shits about what gets them aroused. I've never made it a routine habit to have discussions with my friends about their erections and I have no future plans to do so. So why the hell would I suddenly want to make it a litmus test for someone's faith? And don't give me the whole "well, the Bible says so" bit b/c the Bible also indisputably justifies slavery. Toss that hermeneutic before somebody sees you.
The only investment I have here is the fact that I have friends who swing a different way and, as long as I know them, I will demand that their faith be respected. It's also just a generally interesting conversation, I guess. Well, just some random late-night thoughts to ponder. Let me know what you think.

24 Comments:
Did I scare everybody off? Did thewalrus cross the final line? Come on in and have a drink with me, folks. I promise not to bite.
2:36 AM, June 16, 2005
dante,
Thanks for the response. I'm on my way out but I wanted to offer a few quick comments.
Perhaps I should think about it more but I do think the church has a responsibility to embody relations between one another that are nonviolent (in every way) in nature. I certainly think that sexual morality matters; I am actually saying it applies equally to homosexuals as it does to heterosexuals.
I don't know that I would reduce the explanation of people's opposition to homosexuality as mere bigotry, narrowmindedness, etc. (although my post rhetorically leans in that direction). I do want to emphasize that I'm not attempting to make a blanket statement about sexual morality here (or that there should be a lack of it). I just feel that this is a critical issue for the church to deal with right now and I think it is being very irresponsible with it.
4:45 PM, June 18, 2005
You said that the Bible "indisputably justifies slavery...". Could you show me where that is? It's not that I don't believe what you say, but I would like to take a look at it for myself before I make a judgement on it.
12:38 PM, June 19, 2005
thewalrus,
My question is this: who has said cross words to your bi and gay friends? I'm pretty sure it wasn't me and I'm pretty sure I haven't said any cross words to the lesbians that I worship with on Sunday mornings...
You speak in such harsh generalities about the "church" or whatever the group of people that you have had a bad experience with (i'm not sure that your experience has actually been that bad but this is me speaking out of turn here)
just some of my thoughts, hope all is well in walrus world
more comments coming soon, 2coopers
11:32 PM, June 19, 2005
longhorn,
Take a look at Ephesians ch. 6. My only point with the slavery comment is that we too often use a simplified hermeneutic when interpreting the biblical text and doing so opens up a world of problems.
2coopers,
As of now, no one has directly done so. It's more that of the "public church" making statements of exclusion. My caustic rhetoric should be taken for what it's worth. I'm not intending to be accusatory to those who hold no such thoughts/feelings. A lot of my anger stems from the marriage of the public Christian church with the political right wing extremists. The problem is that very little is being done about it.
Thanks for commenting and I look forward to your other comments.
12:10 AM, June 20, 2005
thewalrus,
I have reread your post a few times now and here is my thought/question for the day...you said..
"Paul's "neither Jew nor Greek, neither slave nor free, nor male nor female, you are all one" comment surely encourages Christians to abide by some type of ethos that demands a lack of recognition of categories that desperately attempt to simplify the omnipresent gray into an easy black-and-white."
I am not sure that Paul is talking about a lack of recognition here. I think he is more talking about the acceptance of differences that fall under the blanket of grace. It seems that gays, bis, bald-headed, black, white, porno addicts, etc. would all fall under this blanket as long as there is an attempt by the covered to recognize the covering and not try to slpi out from under it...
just a thought, peace, 2coopers
5:19 PM, June 20, 2005
2coopers,
You're right. It's really a matter of whether you read "neither/nor" or "either/or". They essentially lead to the same site of non-discriminating grace. I would say though that I don't know of anyone who is trying to "slip out from under" grace. Thanks for your comments and feel free to keep them coming.
Everyone,
Was this post really that off-the-wall? I feel like I'm being scorned!
12:31 PM, June 22, 2005
thewalrus,
my use of "slip out from under grace" was a poor use but i think the main idea i was trying to convey got there...more soon...gonna miss thewalrus this weekend at the hill as well as dante35633...you both will be missed...later, 2coopers
3:24 PM, June 22, 2005
I have a few more thoughts and questions here that I'd like to share...
I wonder what that intro story about gays in the military really has to do with the church? I think that the military excludes a lot of different people for different reasons (physical, mental, religious reasons)so that what needs to happen will happen. Point being, the military is exclusive or "choosy" so that disruptions to everyday activities can go smoothly. If the military really discriminated against gays, then wouldn't they say, "hey, you want to go to war, go ahead, you want to come to boot camp, come on, we don't give a rip what happens to you". I believe that the church is different than the military, at least i hope.
I realize that all the conversation so far has been rhetoric that supports diferent arguments but I would really be interested in what proactive steps that you think the church should take to this issue. It is very easy to be critical and not proactive. I know this because I am critical and not proactive in many areas.
later, 2coopers
3:48 PM, June 22, 2005
dante35633,
I guess I am attacking a straw man to some degree. I (probably unfairly) assumed that people had gotten used to the inflammatory rhetoric. I'm not trying to downplay what I wrote; only that I hope people don't feel "attacked."
rino,
I agree. They've used it for their own purposes. BTW, how is the moving process going?
2coopers,
Got a call from C.W. yesterday. He's now reading the site too. I do hate it that I won't be able to make it this weekend. I would really like to see everyone.
The intro about gays in the military was simply identifying what got my mind thinking about it especially the last few days. But I think it's more of a pride thing for the military too. In my opinion, homophobia has more to do with exclusion or separation. In other words, their very presence in the military (and proximity to other heteros) may cause discomfort on a variety of levels.
I think one of the best things the "church" can do is to start having open dialogues about this stuff. And I do mean open. Making a public statement right now may only cause a civil war of sorts in various churches. But as far back as we are right now, just allowing people to talk about it and voice different opinions is proactive. I'm always open to suggestions here too.
4:03 PM, June 22, 2005
It is interesting that you identified the military as an organization that shares cultural values with the church, or even reflects the values of the church...if that's valid, we really are quite screwed.
sorry I've been away too long...but I promise I read the farewell to E seven thousand times. Doubtful you'll find scorn here either. I do think the anger you write with is misplaced, but not uncalled for. But I think it has a lt more to do with politics (electoral, I mean) than with the voice of the church and her true politic (relational, I mean). In other words, not eveerybody who claims to speak for the church or for God really does so, and this has always been true for God's people. So does the church have a responsibility to find a political, public forum in which it is clarifiyng it's positions? and who would do that? should we always have somebody on tv explaining what we really don't mean? That seems doubtful. perhaps the churhc has been waiting all this time for the blogosphere to creae the possibility of clarification.
11:11 AM, June 23, 2005
loki,
I'm not sure what prompted the random statement of affection but I'll take it well, just in case. Oh, and ditto my friend.
stevepvc,
I certainly agree that it has always been the case for the church to have people speaking on its behalf who shouldn't be. I'm not even sure what "the church" really is anyway as it has no identifiable "locus" of any sort. Things got a little complicated after the Reformation. I'm not even really sure that we necessarily need a unified "voice." I think it does have to begin in a "grassroots" type of way. What all that means or how it should play out I'm also not sure. I think the key motivation for my post is that hopefully we can at least agree that it's an important issue/problem and needs to be addressed. I know I'm not offering much in terms of contruction here but that's simply b/c I don't have it.
5:32 PM, June 23, 2005
Well, Tusky, it's been a while since I dropped in!
I'll disagree that the Bible justifies slavery. The New Testament talks about how to behave as a slave. The Old Testament permits it within Judaism but only if non-Jews are the slaves, and they must only be indentured until debt is paid. So it protects the rights of slaves, too, within a primitive culture.
Practicing homosexuality is wrong, just as is adultery, but it's no more or less wrong than judging someone else's heart or cheating on taxes or being greedy or lying about your age and/or sexual prowess. I don't have a clue why so many Christians single it out for special persecution.
I am encouraged when there are folks who go out of their way NOT to ... as in here and here and your post.
That spirit, I believe, is much closer to Christ's.
9:19 AM, June 24, 2005
dante et al: Most folks recognize a difference or two between the way a lot of things are treated in the Old and New Testaments. NT writers speak out against homosexual practice, too.
I can't accept thewalrus' requirement "And don't give me the whole 'well, the Bible says so' bit b/c the Bible also indisputably justifies slavery." I disputed that. The Bible is my primary way of knowing Christ crucified, risen and ruling - and I can't just chuck it because there are parts of it that I don't like or don't fully understand.
I don't mean to imply a scale of rightness or wrongness when I (sarcastically) say "more wrong"; "wrong" is a word like "pregnant" or "perfect"; it's absolute. You either is or you isn't. (So if you're greedy, quit fibbing about it. It's a 'both-and' thing!)
And I don't buy the Rogers argument - though it is well-posited and described.
Any more than I buy the argument that homosexual sin is somehow bigger or "worse" than any other sin that separates people from God. Pretty much any sin left unchecked is sufficient for that.
But you can't really equate racial bigotry and bigotry against homosexuals. They're both wrong, but equating them is implying that what the bigotry is against is parallel and equal. You can't choose your race. You can choose to have sex, and with which gender you prefer. The Christian response to both different race and different sexual preference should be understanding and inclusion.
My theory is that persecuting homosexual sin generally doesn't affect the persecutor, so it takes attention away from his or her sins ... therefore, it is "bigger" and "worse."
8:35 PM, June 26, 2005
stevepvc,
Per your comments above, I would like to hear your response to squanchum's comments.
squanchum,
Good food for thought. If you could, elaborate on what you mean by "I’m still trying to figure out how to close down some many institutions called church. It might have something to do with the fall of the Military organization of the U.S."
11:53 PM, June 26, 2005
kb,
Thanks for your comments.
I certainly hope you didn't read my comments as a proposal to "chuck" the Bible. I'm not even really sure what that would involve or how it could happen. I have as much respect for the biblical text as anyone else, which is precisely why I don't just take a casual, literalistic reading. Engaging the text involves much more respect than bowing to it. Unfortunately, the text has to be mediated through interpretation and we therefore must use other resources to engage it responsibly.
You said you don't buy the Rogers' argument. I'd be interested to hear why.
I find your comments on bigotry baffling. They actually scare me to some degree. You're creating some sort of loophole for all sorts of violence and discrimination. First of all, I would take issue that it all comes down to choice (Note - I, personally, have no problem with it being someone's preference). You have all sorts of biological studies and compelling social anecdotes to deal with there. Second, you say you advocate understanding and inclusion while also proposing a defense for a distinction of bigotries (sic?).
Comfort is such a big issue here. Gays, bi's, trans, etc. are all "different" than the "norm" so they threaten our comfortable existence. We don't pick out everyone in the church who is fat or who buys Starbucks coffee or who drives a Cadillac because they're so easily accepted. For those of you who have these things, don't take offense here. I can be singled out for a number of things. But it should be understood that these things directly or indirectly participate in our sinful state of existence. What will likely have to happen here is for us to elaborate on the concept of sin. This is probably where we differ.
I'm not sure I understand your last sentence. Can you elaborate?
Well, just some thoughts. Thanks again for your willingness to comment and offer a different opinion. It is certainly welcomed (even though I may take issue with specifics).
12:16 AM, June 27, 2005
A friend of mine pointed me to your site, and I thoroughly enjoyed reading through your last few entries and the comments you received. As a first-timer I am definately coming back to read more of your well-thought words. That being said, I also love debates, and you'll have to forgive me for diving into the middle of this one.
I just want to make two points and then leave my thoughts on this eminent topic.
First: On the point of the Bible supporting slavery, I agree with you, yes it does. Why this argument doesn't work though, is that the slavery was much different in the first century of Paul's writing as opposed to our concept of the matter from nineteenth century America. First century, Roman slaves were not categorized and discriminated in the way that Americans abused African-Americans for the culture and skin color. First century slaves were from all ethnicities and were not treated badly at all. What the Romans called slavery, we would call indentured servitude, as the slaves usually sold themselves into physical labor to pay off some debt, and after a pre-determined amount of time they were allowed to leave. Almost all were treated better than the majority of African-Americans during the nineteenth and even twentieth centuries.
With this distinction being made, Paul's words take on a slightly different light in Ephesians 6. Instead of a call to avoid the chaos that would follow from a mass uprising of an oppressed people, it becomes more of an urge to show the spirit of Christ in their work. The bond between slave and master was a unique one in which the master had direct control over the slave's workload and could easily judge his reactions over a period of time to any changes therein. Paul urges the slaves to go the extra mile as an easy way to show Christ to any master who didn't know Him. Indeed this worked so well that many slave-owners began requiring that their new slaves be baptized and become Christians so that they could get more work out of them!
So it is hard to make the argument to lump Christian acceptance of slavery in the first century with Christian acceptance of homosexuality in the twenty-first century, but we're getting there.
Second: Paul also specifically classifies homosexuality as "sexual immorality" in 1 Corinthians chapter 6. This can not be gotten around. You can not graft, as Eugene Rogers tries to do, the practice of homosexuality into Christ as the Gentiles are grafted into Christ. Paul puts it into pretty straight black and white terms for the Corinthians.
However, as many have mentioned before me, Christianity is founded very much on Grace and Acceptance in Christ, and I believe there is a good way to reconcile these things. I believe that a sin is a sin. Sure some may seem worse than others, but none remain permissible to God, and it is only by His Son that we are saved. Well, a good majority of Christian men struggle with pornography, another "sexual immorality," but when they come to the church, we don't offer to pay for a lifetime subscription to Playboy for them. What a lot of radical fundamentalists also miss though, is that we do not shun these people either. Instead we help counsel them to realize what Jesus wants them to do, and then we help provide them the means of doing that to the best of their ability, with accountibility groups, special prayer sessions, whatever they need.
Going with the Bible and believing that homosexuality is a "sexual immorality," I believe that we should still accept and love any homosexual who comes to the church the same way we would accept and love any liar, thief, murderer, or even pornography addict who walked through the doorway. It is this acceptance and love which will be the most encouraging thing for them to live as Christ would want them to, and is it really our place to deny them grace and acceptance when we know in our hearts that Jesus would accept them just as He would accept each and every one of us?
So those are my thoughts, sorry for the extreme length, but thank you for the wonderful post and insightful debate that is arising out of it. My thoughts aren't fully formed on this topic, but this dialogue has been very educational and has helped me get my bearings on where I truly stand on the matter.
1:20 AM, June 27, 2005
What part of "They're both wrong" wasn't clear?
No loopholes there.
You just can't equate being a different color with choosing a sexual partner; that's all. Bigotry against either is wrong. Period.
Rephrasing the last sentence: People who pick on homosexual sin are not generally those who are tempted by it. They're repulsed by it, so therefore they portray it as "bigger" and "worse" than the sins they participate in - so they focus on it. That takes the focus off of their own sins.
Like greed; indulging my Starbucks fetish instead of feeding the hungry. (BTW, I've been off Starbucks and have been feeding a charity can instead for several months. I'm trying.)
9:42 AM, June 27, 2005
keith
i'm not sure if i agree with your ideas on that sexuality is chosen. i mean, acting on it is a choice but attraction isn't really something you can help just as one cannot change skin color. but i suppose that's neither here nor there since we agree prejudice against either is bigotry.
i think we should all reassess our use of the word "tolerance." It implies that there is something wrong or odd about a behavior. you "tolerate" a screaming child on a plane. you respect an adult making their own decisions.
while this group isn't suseptible to the problematic images this idea conjures, lots of americans are. tolerance may be our worst enemy because of the attitudes the very word reinforces.
loki
props to your wife.
-rino
2:54 PM, June 27, 2005
dapper t and emmanuel,
Welcome to thesecondchance.
kb and dapper t, I hope to get to your comments soon. It's going to be a long week for me but I promise to give my best effort.
loki,
Man, I'll never stop loving you dude. You're one of a kind. What exactly did you urinate in? Your story is great. It reminds me of the story of the waitress at George's who got so tired of missionaries coming to her door at 6 A.M. that she ended up pouring a bucket of water (from her second floor window) on them. I also echo rino in giving props to your wife. I'll be in a fireworks warehouse on Sunday morning so I'll get my share of patriotism.
1:49 AM, June 28, 2005
I may never march in the infantry, ride in the calvary, shoot the artillery. I may never fly o'er the enemy, but I'm in the Lord's army...
9:27 AM, July 01, 2005
Thank you!
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