Free Sex
If you're easily offended by explicit, juicy conversations about lustful sex, don't bother with this post. I'm REALLY open in this post, overstepping all kinds of boundaries. So, I'm warning you now. If you get offended or upset, feel free to argue with me, just don't blame me for reading it or exposing you to all kinds of lascivious joy.
I love sex. I mean, I really, really love it. The saying is true that sex is like pizza in that even when it's bad, it's still really damn good. I’m like a kid in a playground every time I have sex and I don't miss all those times where I went for extended droughts without it. I think, in fact, more people should have sex more often - especially some of my co-workers and fellow students (it might be repulsive to think about them having sex but I bet it would certainly help them to chill out a bit and thereby make my life easier...which, of course, is paramount to everything).
Now, it's certainly true that I've had a history of hang-ups with sex. I was sexually abused by a foster child when I was young enough for my mom to still carry me in her arms. I grew up in a very conservative Christian environment - Christian church, Christian home, Christian school, the standard suburban Christian insulation from the outside heathen world - which means lots and lots of sexual repression and frustration. So for years I mastered the sin/guilt dynamic of beating myself up every time I masturbated or checked out a girl's ass (usually first) or her skin or her hair or chest or stomach or neck or legs or hands...ok you get the point. I've always thought a woman's body is absolutely beautiful. But I always felt bad...scratch that...felt sinful if I took pleasure in delighting in it. I even remember "going forward" in a church service my freshman year of college to repent from watching a quasi-pornographic movie ("Showgirls" was the movie - the movie sucked and so did the women but that didn't matter - God knew I had seen boobs so I had to repent). I remember dating my ex-wife for four years before we got married and having to make out in the back of cars or in the woods or while laying in the same bed that someone else was taking a nap in (that was classic) or on a hotel roof in Athens, Greece. I know it sounds pretty kick-ass but years of dry-humping and clothes-fondling just isn't as good as the real thing. It's why I've mastered the art of teasing and foreplay - I had years of experience. Then finally I got married and had sex for the first time, a somewhat comical experience that made me wonder what happened to the concept of having rehearsal before the show. Well, 2.5 years after that, my ex left me stranded. It took her a year and a half after she left just to file so I was stuck in celibacy as a married man with no wife. Then, I re-entered the world of singlehood and had to relearn how to be just that - single. I finally started dating and letting go of some of the sexual mores of my past. With my sexually constrained past behind me, I just had fun, and I didn't feel guilty whatsoever. I was free. It also helped that recreating myself socially after marriage helped me to develop a lot of confidence. I just decided to ignore everyone's expectations of me and let myself be me, quirks and all. Once I did so, I couldn't keep the ladies off of me. It was as simple as accepting myself for who I am and being confident about it. Now, I go into the bedroom confident, excited, and ready to have a nice long ride...or three.
So why all this narcissistic analysis of my sex life? Well, I intend for it to provide some immediate context as to why I'm beginning this conversation with the freedom of sex. I'm in a great place sexually, and considering all the bullshit that's happened to me over the past few years, I'm partly just taking a moment to revel in it. On the other hand, I think we would all do well to give up our annoying hang-ups on sexuality that are in most cases merely a projection of our fears and insecurities. (That's where we get most of morality actually - it's just reified fears, insecurities, and resentments.)
Good sex really boils down to a few things that simply take practice: taking care of your body, (yes, contrary to what many say, physical appearance does matter - it's not everything, not even most of everything, but it is a lot), taking care of your mind (affirming yourself and your partner and what you're doing with them), and openly communicating with your partner about your desires, fantasies, fears, insecurities, basically anything relevant to your sex life. And if you come from a Christian background, it's just best to ignore most of what you've been told about sex. Many Christians have a knack for making sex far too complicated and way too boring. If you're a freak, like me, you do NOT want Jesus or Mom or Dad in your bedroom.
With all that said, here's some caveats. Being free in bed and enjoying sex doesn't mean you throw responsibility out the window. In fact, if you're irresponsible with sex, you'll get bad results. It could be disease, an unwanted child, or a broken relationship, all of which can carry dire consequences. So yes, I say let go of your hang-ups about God caring about what you do in the bedroom (if there is a God, and that God has a bedroom rulebook, that's just too creepy anyways) and instead, be concerned about you and your partner's health, pleasure, happiness, and well-being.
I realize there's a lot of people who struggle with some very real sexual difficulties and this post is in no way intended to disrespect or ignore that. I've certainly had my share of difficulties. I mean, I love sex and I'm good at it, but I've also had some embarrassing crash and burn sessions along the way where everything didn't quite work like it was supposed to because I was nervous or intimidated or what have you. I mean, shit, it's not easy having sex with someone after being married. Takes a while to get a marriage out of your system. This post is intended more for those with moral or social reservations concerning sex (which are equally "real" but modifiable). I know that I've covered a lot of ground here with a lot of rhetoric that skirts some nuanced issues. But that's what the thread's for. Challenge me, argue with me, supplement me, do what you gotta do. Just pull up to the bar, order a drink, and start hitting on people (unless you're taken...which of course doesn't matter to our good patron liveforwhatever, but just the same). Cheers.
posted by thewalrus at 1:55 PM
39 Comments:
I just want to re-emphasize that there's a LOT of issues involved in this subject that I simply couldn't cover in one post. So if you have questions about my thoughts on a particular subject, let me know.
11:26 AM, August 18, 2008
Um, looks a bit like I might've jumped the gun on a comment flood. Is everyone really that scared to talk about sex? If I get no love on a sex thread, how else am I gonna get it?!
In the words of the Joker - "hit me!"
10:47 AM, August 19, 2008
Greetings:
So I'm sure that there'll be much to weigh in on later, (and I assume that others will make their way to the board soon enough), so I thought I'd just wade in a little bit.
One thing you mention is the sin/guilt dynamic. It's a funky issue, and one in which I'd really like to see some further discussion, and on several points. One is whether people have felt guilt or rather shame in feeling sexually contented. I've actually been reading a lot about the psychology of Melville, and I noticed in reading one novel that anytime he mentions taking pleasure in something (in this case, alcohol or tobacco), he immediately had to exit the situation. He couldn't stand the pleasure because he knew of the resultant guilt.
So is that really guilt? It seems like any pain we feel in response to pleasure has to be some form of shame, as pleasure in itself cannot necessarily have an element of pain. Thus, any opposite sensation has to come from outside the body and outside the rational mind of the person.
One of the reasons I found the Melville discussion interesting is that it's something I've experienced personally. When I officially became sexually active, I found no trouble in experiencing the pleasure (physical or emotional) of sex. It was only after time that I noticed that I felt a creeping uneasiness over the past sex life of my first sexual partner. This is very clearly a projection of my own "guilt" to create a sense of "shame" in the other. The same has occurred with every other close relationship. Ironically, after my first relationship, I also completely detached my emotional self from the sexual experience, and thus became what many might consider to be a "real prick". It was only in retrospect that I realized that I was doing my unconscious best to ignore the fact that I (with that I being my whole Self) was actually sexually active.
I'm now at an interesting period of my life where I have tried to avoid sexual encounters. (I've mostly succeeded...mostly.) This has all been in the hope that I may once again synthesize physical pleasure with emotional fulfillment.
One of my counselors once said to me, "Whenever you're in bed with a partner, you're never alone with them. Each one of you has all the ghosts of past and present relationships. You can't avoid it." While I find that to be true, certainly there has to be a moment when all of that could be let go. I know that I haven't been very good at being "free in bed" since the very beginnings of my sexual life. That's not to say that experimentation and openness have not occurred. (Perhaps that can be saved for further discussion). But even in my openness, I have often felt tied down to shame, guilt, or memory. Maybe all three.
12:06 PM, August 19, 2008
What an interesting post tusked one. BTW, good catching up with you the other night. I hope our paths cross soon...
I think I need some clarity in my own mind when we talk about"context". I will admit (my background being similar to yours) that this is one of the most challenging posts that you have written. Makes me think. Evaluate. I will do my best to elaborate...
later
4:04 PM, August 19, 2008
1. I am a girl.
2. That matters when you are talking about sex. I contend that there is no experience of sex that transcends gender, at least not in our culture, and probably not anywhere.
3. I was not raised evangelical. My family is Episcopalian. We didn't talk about it at home. Religion was a much-dreaded Sunday pursuit, and my behavior in church could usually guarantee me a solitary afternoon in my bedroom playing elaborate games of Life or Monopoly with myself. Religion was not at the forefront.
4. As a result of this and my parents' hush-hush generation, not one word was ever spoken to me about sex until I had it at age sixteen, when all hell broke loose. I learned everything I knew about sex from long afternoons "studying" at the public library. I was unpopular as a preteen. In the locker room kids talked about "blow jobs." I was baffled. But I knew all about fellatio.
5. So, I had no preconceived ideas about what my parents/religious group/extended family thought about sex. They pretended like it didn't exist, but I knew it did. From the library.
6. I learned from the very beginning: Sex is power. Sex is power, especially for women.
7. The day after I lost my virginity as a junior in high school, I told a friend all about it on the phone. My mother overheard. She went nuts. Excerpts: You are going to go to hell! Your father is going to be so disappointed! Etc. Then for the rest of high school, my curfew was 9 p.m. Fine with me. I went on having sex after school, with everyone. I didn't feel guilty or ashamed, I felt relentless and vengeful. I wanted to be liked. Sex got me liked. This was my first experience of sex as power.
8. It is an empty power, though. Sex got me liked, but sex didn't get me a proper boyfriend. It got me a reputation, immortalized in my high school yearbook in some guy's cleverly written Senior Will. It got me an STD and surgery and more dramatic conversations with my parents at age 18. But for the moment, for the moment, it got me someone's undivided attention. That was all I really wanted.
9. I was in college before I had sex with anyone in the context of a Relationship. And guess what? In a relationship, sex is still power. In college, as an adult, in marriage, etc. Sex is total power. After five years of marriage, my husband used to bribe me for sex. With cash. I could have anything I wanted with sex. Except a husband I was in love with.
10. Post-marriage, sex was still power. We left divorce court and spent the afternoon in bed. It was quite an amicable divorce. But again: power. I started seeing someone else, and ex-husband freaked. He didn't freak because I might love another person. He freaked because I had sex with another person. There are definite issues of ownership with men and sex. I felt guilty, which was stupid and unwarranted. He divorced me. We kept having sex (which was sort of mean of me). I slept with someone else. Life goes on.
11. In my thirties, I had the idea to stop eating and I lost a ridiculous amount of weight. Out in the dating world post-marriage has been the most intense experience of sex as power. The smaller I got, the more desirable I was, and the more power I had. I got involved with a married professor. I was a crazy unhealthy weight, tiny like a child, and he just loved it. I could have led him around campus on a string. Power, power. It was intoxicating.
12. Then came the bondage-and-discipline boyfriend. I met him in the divinity library at a computer. Two hours later we were at my house. Probably there should have been shame and guilt associated with all of that, but there wasn't. It was exhilarating. It went on for months. It was all kinds of crazy power.
13. But the thing is: sex is power, but the power is so ephemeral. It is anticipatory power. Once the sex is over, then there you are - if you are a girl - clamoring and plotting for power all over again. Ejaculation is the ultimate enervator, literally for the penis, and figuratively for the glass castle of a woman's power. It is a power you are chasing after as much as you ever get a grasp on it. It is the physical suggestion of the emotional thing desired.
14. So. Sex is power for a woman, but only in this shimmering, momentary fashion. Occasionally it can be physical start to finish, but most often the power diminishes when the sex is over and the relationship does not continue, or kind words are not spoken, or Love does not appear. Sex is often a disappointment in this way. It is the such a powerful thing that leaves you completely powerless in the place that matters.
15. I have a friend who claims that he has this great "no strings attached" sexual thing with this friend of his. Now, I'm not saying that this is impossible, but let's be real. There is no such thing as no-strings-attached sex. There are always, always strings. It's just how well you unravel them, or how pretty a bow you can tie them in. Everything has consequences. Especially sex.
16. Not that that kept me from carrying on a no-strings-attached sexual thing with a friend for the last year and a half. But at times, it was painful. I didn't want a relationship with him, and he didn't want one with me, and yet we were in a relationship. It doesn't mean that in the height of orgasm I didn't wish that my lips could form the words "I love you" for this person with whose body I was so intimately intertwined. I was remarkably vulnerable at times to his cross words or impatience, more than was warranted by "friendship." We negotiated the strings, as best we could. About a month ago, we called it off completely. I still can't make complete sense of it.
17. So, for this girl, sex is power. But sex is also, and in equal measure, hope and desperation, that leaves in its wake an ever-increasing quantity of strings. Sex has never been about shame or guilt. If anything, as a woman, it is more about saying fuck you to the idea that I should feel ashamed of my body in its fullness or guilty for bringing it all kinds of pleasure. Probably my boundaries could be a little firmer. Probably I could stand to put a little less emphasis on sex and what it might mean about me if someone does not (gasp) want to have sex with me.
18. I think because I am a girl, sex has gotten tangled up in self-worth in some dangerous ways. I am prone to foregrounding sex in any relationship as though it will provide some kind of definite foundation, in case the rest of me gets on his nerves. This is ridiculous, but I still do it. It's a kind of power, but it's also a reflection of a deep insecurity that it would be nice to sort out.
19. Currently, I ask little of the world than to meet people that I can have satisfying and energetic and inventive sex with, that we can be kind to one another in the process, and see what happens. I'm not looking to get married again. I'm not even looking for a Relationship with hearts and flowers and all kinds of romantic details. I want to be physically alive, which is the greatest single meaning of sex for me, and one day I would like to procreate. The cheapest way to do this would be sex, but then probably I'm best left on my own. I never did like group projects.
20. And so to this end, a friend and I have been frequenting bars and learning all about sex as power, which could also be called, cleavage as power. It's crazy out there. It's exciting. It's possible. So at least I arrive at this age and I have this still with me, that I am beautiful and worth whatever physical ecstasy there is to have. No one ever taught me otherwise. And for that, I am so so grateful. I suppose my parents never considered that by giving such a blank canvas about sex to their wild and creative girl child, she might spend her life filling it in with every single color she could find.
So there I leave you with my twenty random associations about my life as a girl and sex. It is power and it is powerlessness. It is love and unlove. It is completely full and completely empty. It is how we crash into each other, and how we know we are alive. It is every single color we can find.
- hb
1:39 AM, August 20, 2008
Walrus... I thank-you for writing a post specifically to my station in life. You are amazing. Since my marriage ended, the things I miss the most are cuddling and holding my partner in my arms. Interestingly, those were the things I always avoided during our relationship yet I was 'made' to do anyways. An empty bed can quickly mutate into a more comprehensive sensation of emptiness. I'm moving away from the topic... As before Walrus, you have given me a green light and I deeply appreciate your post for that!! pax, Chuck
4:42 AM, August 20, 2008
Thanks to all of you for your responses. The 2nd day after the post was quite a bit more fruitful than the first.
lfw, one of the things you mentioned that I would like to explore (and did somewhat a few years ago in a sex post) is the relative meaning of sex. That is, does sex have intrinsic meaning? Is sex ever just sex? I've stated before that I think sex carries an unusual existential weight. I think sex can definitely just be sex, but not over time. Having sex with one person over time will create a bond, inevitably. I could elaborate more but I'll wait and see what you guys think.
2coopers, I'm not sure I understood your "context" comment. I'd like to hear more of your thoughts on the topic when you're ready (esp. since you were the one to push me to write it when I did).
hb, thanks for your candor and taking the time to write a lengthy and thought-provocative comment. You've done a lot of introspective thought on the psychological and psycho-social dimensions of sex, particularly the power dimension. It really is amazing how powerful sex is as an act and as a tool. I think your analysis is on target, esp. regarding gender. As I think you'd agree, there's a wide spectrum of experience within respective genders, but there certainly seems to be real differences between them. I can't do justice to your comment in my response to it but I thank you for sharing. And regarding age and beauty - contrary to what many think, I think they have a one-to-one correlation. Women only get more beautiful with age. Physically, I think it's very important that they take care of their minds and bodies as they age (in a healthy but not obsessive way) but the same goes for men (contrary to all the beer-bellied men out there who think that only applies to women). I'm dating a 38-year old right now and she floors me with her beauty, inside and out, on a regular basis. I tell you, until I started dating someone older, I had NO idea how much a deep, honest, and stimulating conversation could make my clothes virtually take themselves off. Top that with some nice bourbon and you've got one rock star of a date.
Chuck, actually you are amazing my friend. You certainly don't need a green light from me but if you found one for yourself, I'll drink to that. Just remember, transitions take time...and lots and lots of crash and burns - emotionally, physically, you name it. I have no doubt you'll do just fine. Look forward to seeing you soon.
1:38 PM, August 20, 2008
I'd also like to take a second to say thank you to HB. A wonderful, candid post, and I may try to respond to it in particular when I get a chance. Thank you.
Walrus--I don't believe sex-in-itself has any intrinsic meaning. To state the obvious, it is (one of) the body's most complete and encompassing, natural drives. Perhaps ironically, that it is a natural drive should suggest that it is a body-only, physical experience. I think we all know that at least the mind is also involved. In my own sexual history, I've determined that when I have been able to "shut off" my mind during the sexual experience, that is concentrate on the physical sensation, some emotional or thoughtful response would only come up later. It has been as if I am willfully repressing any possible thought.
It is strange to me, then, that sex does seem to act as a blank canvas for our hopes and anxieties. It is the embodied and inter-personal location of so much of who we are, and of how we relate to others (significant or otherwise). HB is very right in saying that it is an act of power, but it is also telling of any relationship between individual bodies. (One might say that power is the only true dynamic between bodies). It is very hard to maintain veneer when we make our way into the bedroom, and we very often end up offering our truest statement of relationship while in the act of sex.
I had an experience that ended up as a one-night stand. For some reason, I went through about a week or two where women were picking me up public, initiating the conversations and suggesting some further plan for the evening. Only once did this actually lead to sex. But in that evening, there were many hours of conversation where she and I were clearly putting on a show for one another. We were playing each other, and we were playing some false role. Ultimately, the veneer dropped, and we both admitted that we were not the people we were pretending to be.
I learned much more about that woman from the physical act of sex. (I've found that when one is wrapped in an overwhelming state of ecstasy, there are certain gestures that belie any facade attempted). But even before we transitioned into the physical act, and even though neither of us were interested in establishing any real connection, it somehow became possible (and perhaps necessary) to show some glimpse of our genuine selves.
I'm incredibly glad that this conversation has been initiated, as it may help a few of us sort out precisely what we think about sex and relationships. One element I'm trying to flesh out is whether and/or how sex has become the single-most effective way to bring individuals out of their subjective experience into an experience that allows them an objective look at themselves and at their relationships.
There's something else I would like to bring up: What is the point of sexual experimentation? I've actually been thinking about this for quite some time now, as someone once said to me that they "believe" in sexual experimentation. Beyond the obvious mode of experimenting with persons of other genders, etc., what do we gain by trying new modes of physical intimacy? Is it simply novelty? Is there some ideal sex out there being had, and all we need to do is use some trial and error to find it?
And what do we make of multiple-partner experimentation?
More to come later, with more exciting real-life examples.
Ah, sex! What a lark! What a plunge!
2:57 PM, August 20, 2008
I think I round-a-bouted your question, Walrus. To be more pointed, I'm not sure if sex has any intrinsic meaning. I only know that I've never been given any meaning of sex-in-itself that held true universally, at all points in time. I believe it is one of the deepest expressions of our humanity.
That should do it.
3:01 PM, August 20, 2008
lfw, I think I agree that, as you put it, sex-in-itself has no intrinsic meaning. I didn't do a good job of phrasing really what I meant. I think I was speaking more of it being unique as a tool by which to oommunicate conscious and subconscious desires/feelings. I do think it is that and from what you're saying, it seems like you might as well.
As far as sexual experimentation goes, I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "new modes of physical intimacy." I mean, are you speaking of different sex positions? Like, should a person switch from missionary to doggie-style for a while? Personally, I like to switch shit up just because I'm into that. But I certainly don't think there is a norm or should be. It should have everything to do with what makes both partners happy. But if you mean "should we experiment with other genders" - well, again, I'd say only if you desire too.
As far as multiple partners go, that can get tricky. I think the potential of sex is maximized when practiced regularly between two people. I certainly think that, ideally, any kind of experimentation should be communicated about openly with whomever is involved. I have no idea whether I'm answering your questions as you intended but I'm giving it a shot!
4:03 PM, August 20, 2008
Oh, and regarding "ideal sex" - I don't think it's a matter of other people potentially having "better sex" than you. I think that's silly, really. It's only a matter of whether you and your partner are having a good time in bed. If you're enjoying it, great, keep it up. If you're not, do the hard work and rough talks to make it enjoyable.
All puns are fully intended :)
4:09 PM, August 20, 2008
Yeah Walrus, we probably agree on that. And my misunderstanding led me to overthink the question. Still glad I did, regardless.
So far it's just me and you talking buddy. Give me a Miller's Lite and a pool table, and it's a regular Friday night. Watch out for the tater tots.
I was a little confused when I heard the "I believe in sexual experimentation" statement myself. Mostly because I don't believe in experimentation for the sake of experimentation, and that was what I wanted to know from others. In my own view of sex, and like you said, it is a particular form of communication, and you are offering a singular message to your partner. I think a variety of communications may be offered to a variety of partners in a multiple-partner experience, but that's a different story.
I might as well continue to be honest: I have had multiple-partner experiences. And here's where I stood--I was in love with more than one person involved. Other people were also at least infatuated with more than one. Some people just wanted to have multiple partners. And some people were just bored. Regardless of what we thought it was going to be about going into it, when it all went down, it was just about people expressing their most genuine emotions to one another. Sometimes that meant having sex with, and being in love with, more than one person present.
Sex obviously isn't always about love, but I think it's best when it's honest. I read somewhere that the best sex..."is the sex in which each partner is happy with what just transpired". That's where I stand. Sex is a learning experience, just like anything else. It has to be tried, it has to be failed at, and it has to be an overwhelmingly ecstatic experience. Hopefully not all at the same time.
6:34 PM, August 20, 2008
If we perverts have offended,
think but this and all shall be mended,
that we have but diddled here, and
more comments we now should hear.
8:10 AM, August 25, 2008
I don't know what's goin on either man. Might have to send out another email to beg...
1:08 AM, August 26, 2008
We come from similar backgrounds (Christian family, church, school) and I can relate to the same sin/guilt issues you mention. Similarly during my freshman year of college the guys on my floor had an accountability group. We would meet each week and discuss problems we had that needed prayer; you know the routine I’m sure. It was the same BS “youth group” mechanics, going through the motions, without any real issues being addressed. Anyway, as part of the college group, each participant went around the room with a checklist and said if they had succeeded or failed in each of the categories. I can’t even remember what they were now, except that one of them was if you had kept your “hands pure” or something like that. Although we got chapel credit for going to these meeting, I quit going 1) because I disagreed with the whole list thing & 2) I didn’t like having to either lie or tell everybody my masturbation habits. Now it’s just a trivial example from my past that’s kind of funny.
Everyone that has posted so far seems to have a longer sex history, which probably can be attributed to age. Walrus, you mentioned waiting off having sex until you were married. That just made me wonder (in no way am I saying this applies to you) how often do (or did) people get married because of sex? Although I’ve been practically living with my girlfriend now for over two years, probably not even a week before she and I officially moved out on our own together my mother said to me “I hope you still realize the importance of marriage” (or something to that effect). I told her I didn’t think it was that important. I know what she really was talking about was sex, and living together before marriage (which is, again, only really about sex, is it not?).
I think lfw’s definition of good sex, "sex in which each partner is happy with what just transpired" is pretty good.
Honesty I don’t see how the multiple-person thing could ever work. It seems to me sex works best as a duo(or solo). I just think it’s dangerous bringing in a third person. I guess if all parties involved are okay with it, then fine. But I highly doubt if all parties were completely honest, they’d be okay with it. I guess I'm looking at it from there being an established relationship between two people already in place. Maybe if there isn't any established relationships, then it's a different story?
8:45 PM, August 27, 2008
Leigh botts---thanks for following up on my post!
I think one common theme that's coming up, and a point where everyone agrees, is that there has to be honesty. (I think we can leave the multiple conversation alone, though, and just concentrate on traditional, partner-to-partner relationships).
As a man with a male sex drive, I think honesty is probably the most difficult part about sex. First of all, because what feels "true" in passion won't necessary feel true after passion. It amazes me how much my physiological self confuses my rational nature. For example, I've found myself saying, or almost saying, "I love you" to people that I don't know extremely well, and not even in the passion of sex. Just making out for example. There's something about the physical bonding that triggers my mind to ACTUALLY THINK I'm in love.
On the other side, there's the projection of my own guilt into shaming someone else...and that also forces the issue of honesty. Even as I realize that my latent guilt is a problem, it will still cause a superficial rift in a relationship. Or alternatively, I'll find myself tricking both myself and my partner (unconsciously that is) into thinking that there's not problems in the relationship. That may just be a wish to keep both sex and relationship uncomplicated.
I read a great poem by a friend (Kenneth Robison on http://sacredvoice.blogspot.com) about making love to your partner WITH your hurt. There's something really intriguing about that. We always want to see sex as a pleasurable diversion. What if sex were just an honest reaction to the Other? Doesn't the word Passion actually come from the word Suffering, after all?
11:42 AM, August 28, 2008
lb & lfw, I'll respond tomorrow. Already had a crazy first week of school. Chuck is planning to stop in and contribute soon too. I plan to send out another email to people beckoning for conversation.
7:14 PM, August 28, 2008
Yeah, sex could be an honest reaction to each other's hurts and flaws. Yet it is still pleasurable and diverting, so that helps I guess.
You're right. Honesty is important, not only in sex but in any relationship. On the other hand sex can't always be an honest reaction. How often does one fake passion or orgasm (more often females I'm sure) for the other person's sake. There isn't much honesty in that, but I think it has merit.
It's interesting how you describe a physical bond tricking the mind into thinking it's really in love. There are definitely mind games that occur during sex.
In fact the interplay between body and mind in every facet of life (not just sex) is such an intriguing thing. I don't think we'll ever understand it.
9:52 PM, August 28, 2008
And running in a different direction… I came across a book by Robert Jensen, Getting Off, a polemic against pornography though written by a man. Jensen begins with the conventional demand of our culture, "Be a man," yet ends with a defiant response, "I chose to struggle to be a human being." Jensen illuminates a journey from masculinity to humanity that is a candid and intelligent exploration of porn's demoralizing and destructive role in defining masculinity. He shows how mainstream pornography reinforces social definitions of manhood and influences men's attitudes about women in order to subjugate them in both culture and the bedroom.
As a human trying to make sense of my culture and time, shouldn’t I question merits of pornography, hot-sex, media, manhood, and womanhood? If paradigms for any of these words lack an ethic, shouldn’t a social justice remedy be demanded for each? My sisters should never be compared to an airbrushed something in a magazine. My sisters should never be subjugated to a position or having something inserted into them to measure up to an internet role. A person I care about should never be forced to welcome additional partners into our bed to fulfill any kind of fantasy. My sisters should also live in a society where they don’t worry about date-rape, date-rape drugs, assault, or any type of exploitation so that men may become “more male.”
Due to influential media, sex has unfortunately been propelled into an enterprise by which one can have their individual needs both stimulated and met. Contrarily, I believe intimacy is an enterprise in which attitudes should center on giving and not receiving. I still believe in love. In loving relationships, people can overcome the media and societal pressures around them and focus on affirming sexual relationships. This position may be naïve or Adam Trask-ish, but it is what gets me through my day. If I did not believe naïve love is present in our world, I couldn’t emerge from my room but would remain there and quickly morph into a roach. (You better catch the literary references Walrus).
Physical intimacy is not about the color, intensity, flavor, or even apogee occurring between two people. I believe great sex is rooted in the sincerity and depth of feelings between two people (and yes two). A deep physical intimacy occurs in bedroom moments of humility, honesty and even awkwardness. God I love the “accidents” that occur under the cover of darkness like teeth that accidentally bump, etc. Great sex is about waking up the next morning and having a feeling of wholeness and warmth; it’s not about feelings of emptiness and regret. Great sex is confining myself to kissing the person I love against paying for a steamy night with the person I care nothing about. Great sex is terrible sex with that person with whom I can share my deepest and most vulnerable feelings, memories, goals, and fears. Great sex is making breakfast with your partner the next morning and it being just as creative, sensual and even sexy as your previous night’s festivity. So, fuck the media. Love, but love genuinely. And that Charlie Brown, is the meaning of Christmas. Tear me up Walrus. pax, Chuck
6:58 PM, August 30, 2008
lb, I’ve always hated those accountability groups. They really just end up being voyeuristic and creepy. And even when they do work, I think it keeps people in unhealthy modes of self-loathing. Christianity has done a horrible job with sex in that it has attempted to desexualize the human body. It took asceticism in the worst direction imaginable. As far as fake orgasms go, I don’t think it’s healthy to do it unless it’s something your partner wants you to do. Most of the time the only reason orgasms need to be faked is due to a lack of communication. If a person has to fake an orgasm, it’s typically because their partner doesn’t know how to please them (probably because the person faking the orgasm hasn’t told them). Or, it could be that the person faking has some personal issues with vulnerability or fear and therefore cannot achieve a true orgasm. So really, communication is so critical. It really just comes down to telling your partner what you like to do and being open to what they like.
Lfw, you said “We always want to see sex as a pleasurable diversion. What if sex were just an honest reaction to the Other? Doesn't the word Passion actually come from the word Suffering, after all?” I really think sex can be all of the above. I think it’s certainly useful as a pleasurable diversion but it’s also deeply meaningful as an honest reaction to the other. I thought your friend’s post was interesting. I think an honest encounter in sex is what makes it great. I do think that it takes time for couples to learn that vulnerability together though.
Chuck, I’m working on your response, my friend.
5:32 PM, September 01, 2008
Chuck:
I really enjoyed your post. Call me hypocritical, but as a sometime viewer of pornography, I would absolutely agree that it sets up unrealistic, and unhealthy, expectations of individuals. I wouldn't say that it's all detrimental, as some pornography plays more into an individual's sense of creative exploration and fantasy. In that sense, it taps into what is real and undiscovered in ourselves, rather than laying some outside idea of sex upon us.
I would also disagree that all intimacy should be focused on giving and not receiving. It has to be a combination of both, if it's to be a genuine show of love. Think more abstractly--When we "give" love that is never received, we're not doing anyone any good. Sure, by loving we are offering the opportunity and hope of love to the recipient, but without the acceptance of that love, there is certainly less benefit.
It's just as true in intimate pleasure. If there is no mutual acceptance of pleasure, then we are denying the greatness of the encounter. It's a two-way street.
Correct me if I'm wrong, (because I often am), but it seems like your post conflated "the media" with a lot of things that have nothing to do with the media. It sounded as if you were saying that the focus on pleasure is an unreal and abnormal way to view sex. If that's what you were saying, I'd have to disagree. Like The Walrus, I have to say that sex is everything that you said it is, but it can also just be pleasure. And that pleasure-only can also be fulfulling and wholesome. In that moment, there is giving and receiving, there is mutual concern and respect, and there is the fulfillment of basic biological needs. Why can't it be all those things?
I hope I don't come off as being too contrary, because I was really touched by your post. Your description of a morning after with your partner was quite charming, and offers real insight into what it means to be a loving and considerate partner. Thank you.
9:09 AM, September 02, 2008
Chuck,
Thanks for contributing. Lfw beat me to the chase as I got interrupted yesterday. School is knocking me a good one. I’m with lfw in not having a single-handed approach to porn, which likely isn’t surprising as I don’t have a single-handed approach to many things at all. I agree that porn (especially certain types) can have a variety of negative effects on those who participate and/or view it. However, I do not think it should be universally condemned as I know that it can have some constructive sides to it as well. I know that some couples have successfully used it to spark their sex life in some way. I’m not opposed to that but neither am I really inclined to do it. I also think that the negative effects of porn are far more cross-gender than most realize. Most people say it just “objectifies women.” Well, first of all, I don’t even know what that means. What exactly do we not objectify in our lives? Second, I don’t really buy the slippery slope argument that objectification inevitably leads to abuse and subjugation. I imagine a number of you might disagree with me here so feel free to speak up.
You said, “As a human trying to make sense of my culture and time, shouldn’t I question merits of pornography, hot-sex, media, manhood, and womanhood?” Well, yes and no. It’s always healthy to question (and if you know me, you know I do it all too often) but I think that questioning can become obsessive and somewhat narcissistic at the same time. If you continuously interrogate all categories without maintaining a certain level of contentment with the way things are, then you’ll go fucking insane. Trust me. A wise friend once taught me that I needed to learn how to say “It is what it is” to a lot of the things I questioned. It’s some of the best advice I’ve ever been given. With that said, I think it’s important to set your own standards too. What’s “hot sex”? Well shit, I think it’s whatever you like to do. Make it hot and steamy and let yourself get really horny thinking about it. I mean, why did our natural propensity for sex become so taboo?
You also said “My sisters should never be compared to an airbrushed something in a magazine. My sisters should never be subjugated to a position or having something inserted into them to measure up to an internet role. A person I care about should never be forced to welcome additional partners into our bed to fulfill any kind of fantasy. My sisters should also live in a society where they don’t worry about date-rape, date-rape drugs, assault, or any type of exploitation so that men may become “more male.”” - You’re right that your sisters shouldn’t be compared to an airbrushed magazine, but they will my friend, and I would suggest that they need to develop a personal response to that reality. I’m not saying be passive at all, but if you spend all of your energy resisting it, you’ll really only be giving it more power. Regarding your allusion to sex toys, I’m not sure why you are opposed to that. I’ve used sex toys with a partner before and it was mutually fulfilling (she used it and enjoyed it and I enjoyed her enjoying it) and rather satisfying. But I would also say (and this applies to your second statement) that no one should be forced to do anything in bed so if they’re not comfortable with it, they shouldn’t do it.
I would also echo what lfw said concerning sex being about giving and receiving. Being a good Christian, I told myself for years that sex (and everything else in life) must be about sacrifice and giving-only. The result was an unhealthy sex life. If you don’t allow your partner to give anything to you, how are they going to be happy? I really think the giving-only approach is actually the more selfish one. It really makes sex a one-way street. I know you said “center” on giving but I think sometimes it should center on receiving. Let your partner make you happy sometimes without feeling like they have to receive something in return (and then do the same for them at another time). Make sense?
And I thought your last paragraph was great too (clearly lfw and I have way too much in common with our views on sexuality – I think that’s why we’ve been accused of being lovers before…wait, I think I actually made that joke myself one drunken night (likely grilling frozen chicken on his back deck at 3 am…)). But I especially connected with what you said about breakfast. You ever cook breakfast in the nude together? Yep, great stuff. Watch out for that bacon grease though…that shit hurts…:).
p.s. – I’m guessing you’re referring to Kafka, which I’m ashamed to say I haven’t read yet…but I did catch the reference. But who is Adam Trask?
4:59 PM, September 02, 2008
wow, sorry about the long response. Apparently I like to talk about sex.
And let me just reiterate that I welcome any of you to disagree with me.
5:00 PM, September 02, 2008
Yeah, maybe a little too much in common.
10:37 AM, September 08, 2008
Well, there is the fact that only you are a crazy bastard...wait...
3:32 PM, September 08, 2008
http://www.nydailynews.com/gossip/2008/09/09/2008-09-09_howard_stern_in_virgin_territory.html
I wish I could sell my virginity to pay off my student loans!
6:09 PM, September 12, 2008
Well, I have absolutely nothing good to say for myself here. In fact, I might even need a spanking...
I've apparently had two months now to make a comment on this post and I have failed miserably at joining in on this discussion, at least here at this bar. This post has sparked a few verbal discussions here and there on the topic, for sure. I've also been somewhat of a voyeur here at this bar at times, checking in repeatedly, reading and rereading what the rest of you have had to say, but I never fully joined in on the fun. Walrus, my apologies. I do hope you'll still accept a comment even though you are clearly "Moving On" to other matters at this point. So, for whatever it's worth here and now, I'm going to throw my two cents in to the ring, order up a four finger pour of a small batch Kentucky bourbon (your choice), and lay a few of my thoughts about sex out on the bar here. I have a feeling that this could potentially turn into a rather long post. I might also need a beer to go with that bourbon, bartender...
For one, you talk about hang-ups with sex. I think a lot of people have those. A lot of people. Maybe most people, to some degree or another. They come in many different forms and fashions, from different experiences - religious or moral based repressions or judgments, fears and insecurities, physical or psychological experiences, and so on. And what may be taboo to some is completely acceptable to others. Although sex is a common thread among us all (or at least I hope it is), our definitions of (or preferences for) sex certainly vary. For the sake of argument, one person might find another's "freak"iness inappropriate or objectionable, but isn't the reverse also possible, that one might also equally find someone else's non-freakiness somewhat objectionable? I'm not pointing any fingers here at all; I'm just doing what I do all too often, many times to my own detriment - seeing both sides of an issue and straddling a line. Personally, I don't necessarily think either position (no pun intended) is necessarily wrong; to each his/her own, and all that. Personally, I may not generally prefer to have what I would consider to be plain old boring missionary style sex, but I may also not have any desire whatsoever to, say, dress up in a furry animal costume or hang myself from the ceiling to get my kicks. In fact, I just don't see the excitement in that. But then again, maybe I'm being judgmental there. I guess "you play your way and I'll play mine" should be the mantra, so long as nobody is getting hurt and you and your partner are enjoying one another. I don't know, I'm rambling, another thing I tend to do... But let me ramble some more.
The problem I guess certainly comes when judgment gets involved. Repression from certain belief systems (Christianity, for instance) is one of those. Close-mindedness and an inability to accept the differences of others, based on morals or stupidity or whatever else, also, obviously, leads to judgment. Not understanding can lead to judgment. At the basis of it all, whatever your belief or whatever your preference, it all seems to ultimately come back down to psychological reasons. Maybe I'm a freak to someone because a particular experience or facet of their upbringing somehow deems something I do to be odd, or wrong even. And maybe someone is odd to me because my own upbringing or experiences lead me to think a certain way. Who's right, and who's wrong? How do we know how a person arrives at wherever they are? I mean, there's a term for people who get aroused by flatulence, eproctophilia - that's new to me (where does that come from?); or for those aroused by shoes or blood or ghosts or pregnant women or food or urine or being beaten or beating someone... Okay, so, maybe I do judge some of these. But that's because I don't understand them. I don't relate to those desires or needs for certain external things to arrive at sexual pleasure. There's even a term for people who get sexually aroused from diapers. I'm baffled. And I'm still rambling.
All of this to say, sex is ripe with hang-ups, on both ends of the spectrum and everywhere in between. And now that I've made that comment I don't quite know where else I intend to go with it. So I suppose I'll just leave it at that. I will say though that I agree that there should be a freedom to sex, a freedom to explore and experience and openly enjoy what you enjoy without the constraints of judgment or expectations or hang-ups, but even with that said, it might be impossible to fully escape the hang-ups we probably all carry to some degree as a result of our life experience and or psychological structure. But I definitely absolutely think we should all feel free to talk about sex and to find pleasure in sex. I do think one of the biggest fucking problems and reasons for people's hang-ups and judgments and insecurities and peculiarities with sex in the first place comes from the very common issue that sex is just not something you talk about, it gets avoided or its too uncomfortable to discuss and that leads to a big pile of bullshit and problems and judgments. At least in our culture. Anyhow, on to other things.
Next stop, "good sex" as you refer to it. I've been sexually active since I was 15 or 16 years old. Over the years I've had good sex and I've had bad sex. I've had sexual experiences that were loving and meaningful and pleasurable; I've had those that were uncomfortable and unenjoyable; I've gone through the motions before without even really being interested in having sex with that person (even though a monogamous partner); I've had the token one-night stand which was exciting but ultimately a very empty experience for me; I've had sexual experiences where I was objectified and used and treated inconsiderately. I've been through physical and emotional and psychological abuse from long-term monogamous partners who I cared deeply for. These experiences combined with my religious and social and cultural upbringing make me the sum of all these (and more) parts. These experiences might lead to hang-ups but they also lead to growth and open-mindedness and perhaps acceptance and understanding. I've come a long way in my thoughts and opinions about sex over time.
But getting back on track: good sex. At present, I am happily in a very healthy place right now, sexually. What you say about being open with a partner and communicating is of paramount importance; that alone ultimately makes for incredibly meaningful experiences, sexually and otherwise. Looking back, I haven't always had that openness and having it now is a very wonderful thing. It is so important, in so many ways. I am incredibly grateful to be where I am right now, and to be encouraged to be open by the person I am sharing these experiences with. Also, taking care of yourself, being able to give as well as receive, and truly caring about and being considerate of your partner's happiness and pleasure is truly the key to wonderful experiences - and some pretty hot and heavy dates, for sure.
Well, I guess I'll cut myself off here. For one, I've posted quite a long comment here, and I suddenly find myself all out of bourbon and beer at this point; also, I just about got myself all worked up thinking about certain things, so I'll go ahead and call this one quits from here. Besides, it's time to move on anyhow. And on top of that, I have a thesis to start read ing as well.
Thanks walrus for getting this conversation up and running in the first place. It's really important for people to talk about and think about. As always, cheers.
12:35 PM, October 07, 2008
I'm evidently four months overdue on commenting, but I'll step out of the shadows and take a dirty martini if the bar is still open (three olives).
I was raised in a strict Christian environment familiar to many of you here, which led me to labor under the impression for quite some time that sex (or at least premarital sex) is bad. When I did become sexually active I was very fortunate that for several years my experiences were exclusively good ones, leading me to believe sex is entirely good. It also led me to develop what I think is possibly an unusually high sex drive for a woman, which has its benefits and drawbacks at times, but that's a discussion for another day.
Reality of course falls somewhere between these two extremes. Sex is neither entirely bad nor entirely good. It is to some extent what we make of it, but sometimes circumstances beyond our control can take over.
I was in a serious relationship for several years until relatively recently, and we were making plans to get married. For various reasons the relationship crumbled (and for that I am extremely grateful, having been spared the pain of what certainly would have resulted in divorce). One contributing factor was horrible sex. The difficulties were partly on account of emotional incompatibility, but physical incompatibility existed as well that I could not find a way to overcome despite several years of effort.
I spent the final year of the relationship asking myself on a near daily basis if I could honestly be happy having sex with this person and only this person for the rest of my life. The answer was a consistent "no", which made me feel shallow.
This thought process made me wonder what becomes of marriages between people raised in similar backgrounds to mine (and presumably yours) in which premarital sex is strongly discouraged. Sometimes it works out perfectly well, but what happens when it doesn't?
Many people with whom I've had this conversation who were raised in aforementioned environment seem to believe that if true love is present, physical incompatibility can be overcome or isn't important. The same goes for physical attraction (the old, "looks don't matter" jazz). I disagree entirely and will never under any circumstances consider marriage without getting a very clear vision of exactly what life with a particular person will entail - both in and out of the bedroom. This flies in the face of everything I was taught, though.
Sex is one of many areas in which there is a major disconnect between my religious/moral/ethical upbringing and the way I choose to live my life in practice, so having said that I raise my glass to you (albeit unfashionably late) for raising the issue, and I hope the new year brings further discussion of the topic. It has been very interesting reading everyone's thoughts on this.
10:20 PM, December 14, 2008
Well in hopes of getting this thread fired up again (no pun intended), I’ll offer a belated response to thegoose and a response to lady_x as well.
thegoose, I’ll pour you up a shot of Jefferson’s Small Batch and set a Schlafly IPA on the counter. Regarding taboos, I’m not much into hanging from ceilings or wearing animal costumes either (although if I ever tried costumes, I would want to do something hilariously outlandish…like an anteater…you know those guys get points with the ladies with a snout like that! Did I just type that??). I think you make a good point, however, concerning taboos. At what point do they become inappropriate if both partners find something enjoyable? It is absolutely bizarre some of the things that people get into – diapers, wtf? Like you, I think people’s business is their business but I do have a tremendously hard time comprehending some of these things.
It sounds like that partner you’re with right now is pretty kickass! Thanks for your comments. And let me know what you think about that thesis ;)
11:49 AM, December 15, 2008
lady_x, dirty martini it is…and if you’re like me, maybe I’ll set the olive jar next to the drink :). Thanks so much for your comments and I thank you for being open. I would like to hear your thoughts if you’re willing about the benefits and drawbacks of a “high sex drive” as a woman. I say “as a woman” because it is a common stereotype that men are more sexually driven than women. I’ve always wondered whether this is a nature/nurture thing. Are women that way due to patriarchy? Is it cultural? Is it because men have historically sucked at pleasuring women? I’ll go balls out and say this latter question is true. I have been lucky enough to escape the whole “I just want to use a woman as a depository for my sperm” or “A woman exists to please me” dynamic as my sexual hang-ups were in the other direction (seclusion and repression). So, I’ve had little problem with respecting and pleasing a woman in bed but it took me a longer while than most to get to the point where I felt ok doing it (as in not seeing God as a bedroom policeman or mind policeman). So when I make comments like “I’m good at sex,” it’s less bravado than it is “Thank god I made it out of repression – I’m having fun now!” But I also think sex is an art form and one that must continuously be attended to between lovers. I think the problem with many lovers is that they think good sex just “happens.” Sometimes, yeah, but the best sex is the kind where lovers communicate and feel free to be open. That is, enjoy your body and your partner’s body and take delight in exploring new things. And do it how you want to do it – kinky or gentle or rough or in costumes, what have you. It does get tricky at times because of our past experiences. If you’ve been fucked over by an ex-, you might have trust issues, etc. These will likely be an ongoing struggle (as they are for me). But being open about them and having a partner that will listen and share in return are extremely important. Ok, I think I just realized I started rambling and stopped responding to you specifically, lady_x.
I think you are absolutely right to emphasize physical compatibility alongside emotional. I do think both can be worked on but I think both partners have to be willing. Our backgrounds (which I presume to be quite similar considering the school we went to) have de-emphasized the physical in favor of the emotional and spiritual, as if the latter are more important. Well, I disagree with that. That’s a fundamentally flawed anthropology that emphasizes mind and spirit over body, as if those can ultimately be separated. I think the ideal is to have all of those integrated in a healthy fashion. Our bodies and sexualities are EXTREMELY important. Now, some might say “well what about when you get too old to have sex?” Well, I think eros goes way beyond genital contact. Physical touch, even in the smallest ways, is an expression of erotic desire.
It sounds to me like you have your head on straight about relationships so don’t give up! Thanks for joining the discussion. As I wrote this comment, I realized that I have a lot more to say. I think I might have a follow-up sex post at some point. Cheers.
12:28 PM, December 15, 2008
You make a mean martini.
Female sex drive is still somewhat of a mystery to me. I'm a woman and I still can't tell the difference between perception and reality sometimes. I think it is a safe assumption to say men typically have a higher sex drive than women. There are obvious exceptions, but I think it's a function of biology more than society, culture, etc. - especially with age, though cultural pressures certainly play into it, which I'll touch on later.
Male sex drive seems to stay more consistent throughout life. Has a man ever said "not tonight dear, I have a headache"? So when I discovered early on that I seemed to be more driven than many of my female counterparts, I assumed this was a huge advantage for me in the dating pool. I thought this made me the best girlfriend ever, but then I saw those around me who were more into "playing games" (i.e., using sex or lack thereof to get certain desired effects) having more luck with the gents.
Meanwhile, I was backlashing against "the chase" and the "thrill of the hunt" but that repeatedly backfired on me. I thought of myself as enlightened and comfortable with my sexuality, but there's a fine line apparently, between being sexually enlightened and overplaying one's hand. The difference may be not that the women around me have a lower sex drive per se, but that they are more skilled at controlling and channeling their sex drive into a negotiating or bargaining tool. But does it really have to be that way?
This raises the whole issue of the games we play. Lots of men use women strictly for pleasure, and lots of women use sex strictly as an avenue to accomplish something entirely unrelated to sex, which I always found fascinating. I don't know that I necessarily agree with either approach, but reality needn't be so diametrical. I always hate to see girls around me use sex as a reward or lack thereof as punishment - it reminds me of training dogs. I see it all the time. This is an abomination to me, but the girls I know who do this have boyfriends and husbands and I don't, so I raise my glass to them for figuring something out I have apparently yet to master.
Gender roles in society factor into this as well - there are still certain things men can say or do in the sexual arena that if a woman did she would be labeled a slut. So maybe we're not really less driven, but still encouraged to pretend that we are. How annoying.
I seem to have eaten all of the olives...
11:04 PM, December 15, 2008
Not to worry, I have a whole stash of olives…not to mention gin…
As I read through my last post, I realize I used the word “bravado” in one sentence where I meant to say “braggadocio.” That’s what I get for talking big.
Your post fascinated me and I found it really insightful. It reminds me a lot of huile bleue’s post above. Women, perhaps due to the need for cultural survival, have learned how to use sex as a tool for power. You know, it’s quite amazing what you learn about culture and dating the older you get. It’s like “why the hell couldn’t I have learned this stuff years ago?” Might’ve spared myself some grief along the way…not to mention get laid more. Anyways, I’ve always been curious about “the chase” element that seems to pervade the dating scene. I think it goes for girls too though. It’s why girls go for the “bad boy” thing so much. They like the challenge and they like being the savior. For years, I would always resent being told that “nice guys finish last” because I considered myself nice (isn’t that a compliment??). But after a while, I said fuck that and learned how to play the bad boy game. There was something quite freeing about it and I got a lot more attention from the ladies. If you’re able to play the “bad boy” thing off well (rather than actually being one), it frequently works even better with the ladies because they like the mixture of nice and naughty. It’s what defines sexy. There’s a part of me that wants to say this is somewhat tragic but is it?
I would say to you, however, that the scene will continue to change a bit as you age. I would say that as guys get older, they tend to care less about the chase than they do about having fulfilling sex. So, I think a strong sex drive will ultimately work in your favor. I have always had a tremendously strong sex drive (my fucking hormones seem to have been in overdrive since I hit puberty) but that certainly has its setbacks for guys as well. When you’re a walking steampot, it can frequently be difficult to channel that energy in healthy ways. But I do understand it is different for ladies. At the risk of sounding patronizing, I really do think you’ll be fine in this regard. You’re attractive and intelligent – if that’s mixed with a robust sex drive, you might eventually be complaining about guys not leaving you alone.
As far as training dogs go (great analogy btw), I think that in some cases that can be fun (as in, whoever wins this game of pool gets head, or something…not that I’ve ever done that of course…). But I think in the cases you are speaking of, it is still used as a manipulative tool and I think that is unhealthy.
Ok, I’m grabbing some Kahlua and crème de cacao for my coffee while I’m bartending here. I’ve got a 12-hour shift at my second job in the library today…
10:17 AM, December 16, 2008
Oh, and I set another martini on the counter for ya.
10:19 AM, December 16, 2008
Hm, I kind of meant to respond to this when it was first posted, but I thought maybe I didn't have much to add! After reading all of the other posts, however, I think I do have a slightly different perspective on a few things.
I'm a woman. And, I grew up in a completely un-religious environment. My parents are very free-thinking, honest, liberal, etc.
And yet, I first had sex pretty late. Age 20, in fact. I have now had a decently, hm, extensive? sex life, but, I find that the 'guilt' that enters into my sexual behavior is not a result of sex itself, or of any unique/creative..! manifestation thereof.
No, I have found that I feel guilty about NOT having sex. I feel guilty if I'm too drunk, guilty if I'm on my period, guilty if I don't want to perform, well, some of the more one-sided acts, guilty about insisting on condoms... and when I'm too tored or whatever, I've felt like I "owed" my partner some other means of relief.
I don't know where these feelings come from. It is true that I've often dated men who were slightly older, maybe men who were particularly sure of themselves. I think that's a quality I find attractive. And yet, when it comes to work, study, family relationships, even friendships, I have no trouble being domineering. So what's the guilt source?
In another role-reversal from a couple of recent posts, I don't think I ever feel like the powerful one in my sexual relations. I never learned how to use sexuality very effectively, and I don't tend to be very sure of my level of sexual attractiveness. Certainly, I am insecure about my body in some of the predictable ways, I am shy about initiating sex, and I generally fail to indicate what I need to a sufficient degree. Therefore, sex is regularly disappointing for me.
All of this is odd, because I have a very healthy sex drive, and I have hm, a, good time, quite regularly. (I'm the best I've ever had, and I have me a lot...)
So what all of this leads me to is the thought that maybe women don't all learn to wield sexual power in some of the ways that have been articulated. And, perhaps the sex-guilt relationship is a little more complicated for the non-religious?
On the other hand, if no one else has these problems, perhaps I am an insecure novice..and should try illegal drugs or something...
2:36 PM, December 18, 2008
p.s. too "tored" earlier in that post was supposed to be too "tired"...
2:38 PM, December 18, 2008
Anonymous, thanks so much for your post and offering an alternative perspective. I think it’s an excellent addition to the conversation and I commend you for being honest.
The most interesting (and perhaps telling) thing about your post is that you say that you feel guilty about not having sex but that you still have a strong and healthy sex drive. I say this because in many, if not most cases, guilt about not having sex has more to do with guilt about not wanting to have sex. This does not seem to be the case with you. I’ll try to respond to your post in pieces.
You said “No, I have found that I feel guilty about NOT having sex. I feel guilty if I'm too drunk, guilty if I'm on my period, guilty if I don't want to perform, well, some of the more one-sided acts, guilty about insisting on condoms... and when I'm too tired or whatever, I've felt like I "owed" my partner some other means of relief. I don't know where these feelings come from. It is true that I've often dated men who were slightly older, maybe men who were particularly sure of themselves. I think that's a quality I find attractive. And yet, when it comes to work, study, family relationships, even friendships, I have no trouble being domineering. So what's the guilt source?”
Well, first of all, you should never feel guilty about insisting on condoms, especially the older you get and the more partners you have. Sure, it is certainly an inconvenience at times but if the guy wants to get laid, he needs to wrap his shit up. Overall, I would suggest that what you are struggling with more than anything else here is insecurity, the patron anti-saint of sexual experiences. You say that you are “domineering” in work, study, etc. but even that in most cases is still a compensation for insecurity. Much of the battle is getting comfortable with the person you are with, which is obviously difficult when you are first starting out. But it sounds like to me the reason why sex has been disappointing for you is because it has been essentially uncomfortable. It’s not just about physical insecurity but also about emotional insecurity. In other words, you’re sharing yourself in a far deeper fashion than you are in work, study, family, friends, etc. Also, I have found sex to be a counseling experience at times! For example, over the years, I have frequently struggled with being uncomfortable while receiving oral sex and yet completely comfortable in giving it. It’s probably related to several things but mostly with not knowing how to receive a gift well (and this is true for several reasons, I can explain if needed). So as such, I get turned on in sex more than anything else by my partner being pleasured. But as I’ve said in a previous comment, I have learned to recognize that learning to receive well is a gift to your partner too.
You also said, “In another role-reversal from a couple of recent posts, I don't think I ever feel like the powerful one in my sexual relations. I never learned how to use sexuality very effectively, and I don't tend to be very sure of my level of sexual attractiveness. Certainly, I am insecure about my body in some of the predictable ways, I am shy about initiating sex, and I generally fail to indicate what I need to a sufficient degree. Therefore, sex is regularly disappointing for me. All of this is odd, because I have a very healthy sex drive, and I have hm, a, good time, quite regularly. (I'm the best I've ever had, and I have me a lot...).”
Power is really a relative thing in sex, even though it’s always present. That’s one of the things I appreciate about the S/M scene is that it understands and manipulates the power dynamics in sex. Granted, there are many cases where it is abused, which is why I’m not into that scene myself, but I do think restraints (which are still a mild form of S/M) such as handcuffs or ties are pretty hot and helpful in learning how to be the one “in control” as well as the one “under control.” I think fulfilling sex involves learning how to do both but I have often struggled with the latter. So, I say all that simply to emphasize that there’s no one way you’re supposed to be in bed. As far as masturbation goes, I have found in recent years that doing that with your partner is…well, pretty fucking cool. So if you do that a lot and you’re comfortable with it, maybe you could try that with your partner? Just a suggestion. I also know that that requires a certain sense of being secure with yourself though (because you’re much more “on display” than in sex). But if you can find a way to get to that point, I can see how that might make you more comfortable with yourself in the long run.
More than anything else though, it comes down to communication and trust. If you get those down in the bedroom, the room for pleasure breaks wide open. It requires a bit of brutal honesty at times, though. Can you tell them your fantasies? Can you tell them what stuff you like to do or would like to do, what stuff you are uncomfortable doing but want to get more comfortable with, etc.? If sex feels like it’s “expected” or you feel “obligated,” you won’t feel free to have fun with it. It seems to me that your guilt comes from here too. Perhaps you resent feeling obligated to have sex or you resent feeling like you’re “supposed to” want to have sex at a given time. Again, that’s something best communicated about with your partner. For example, when do you find yourself the most turned on? Night? Morning? After a good conversation? After working in the yard? Maybe you could find certain circumstances or triggers and work with those some.
You know, I think the guilt dynamic is probably a lot more common than I previously assumed, whether you have a religious background or not. Anyways, I have typed a virtual novel so I’ll stop now. Thanks for pitching in. You’re getting me motivated to write maybe another sex post!
11:33 AM, December 19, 2008
One thing I want to emphasize that I perhaps didn't in my last comment is that all the stuff I am suggesting is not easy. I know that it's a process and that it requires a mature partner. So, I don't mean to suggest any of that is easy or simple. It takes time and disappointments and embarassments, etc. But I do think if you continue to work on it, there will be payoff.
12:24 PM, December 19, 2008
It's interesting you should raise the issue of guilt, Anonymous. I felt that way often in my last relationship - sex in that situation was very uncomfortable physically and emotionally, and I dreaded it, but usually caved on a monthly basis because I felt I was under some sort of obligation. Guilt was essentially the driving factor in the bedroom and it made me feel awful.
In other situations I felt I was only kept around for sex, so when I wasn't able to or did not want to perform I felt I had no other redeeming qualities. Few things in life make one feel lower, and that can certainly destroy any sense of power one otherwise may have enjoyed in the bedroom. I think your ability to wield this power is as much contingent on who you're with and your comfort level/compatibility with them as it is on your own personal security. I'm not sure of your specific circumstances, but I do know that being with certain types of domineering personalities can make you feel more like a plaything than a person, which can cause emotional insecurities to spiral out of control.
Semi non sequitur here, but this reminds me of something huile bleue touched on a while back that I think is actually a pretty common situation -- on two occasions these types of emotional insecurities in sexual relationships (and I qualify them as exclusively sexual, because in hindsight there was very little substance there beyond that) manifested themselves in eating disorders for me, which for most people who've been through that I've found has less to do with image issues and more to do with power and self control (it's a struggle for power that essentially ends up stripping you of all power, and one of the key areas in which women most often lose control is in their relationships with men). I think this sense of insecurity manifests itself differently in different people, and maybe for you it is emerging as your hesitance to be more assertive in your physical relationships.
I think the negative effects of sexual relationships can be more damaging for women sometimes. As women we are much more prone to be emotionally tied to the sexual experience than men which I think is why emotional and physical insecurities tend to affect us more, and probably why women are more likely to be hesitant to initiate sex. It is much more emotional for us, so I think for us to go there is a much greater stretch sometimes. Even for people perfectly comfortable in their own sexuality.
Having said that, I wouldn't trade my experiences - good or bad - for virginity any day.
As for your comment about being the best you've had, cheers to that. I am currently under self-imposed celibacy until I can break this recurring pattern of seriously unhealthy relationships, so I will be my only partner for the foreseeable future!
10:56 PM, December 21, 2008
I’m finding this conversation to get more and more interesting. Lady_x, I think your comment about eating disorders being a manifestation of issues of power more than self-image is spot on. I believe I have experienced something analogous to that, albeit pale in comparison. In some past traumatic experiences, I found myself immediately entering into a more rigorous physical regimen of sorts. I think it’s the case that certain experiences that make you experience a lack of control are compensated for by resorting to the one site where you can establish control – the body. When all is chaos around you, the immediate physical experience of control somehow becomes consoling.
I think your comment about the negative effects of sexuality being more damaging for women is interesting. As I’ve said in my previous sex post several years ago, I think there is an emotional element to sex that is frequently underestimated. While I think you are right that women are generally more emotionally connected in sex, I do think that distinction can be overdrawn (but don’t hear me as saying you are doing that b/c you’re not). While I can certainly say sex is something deeply emotional for me, I can also say that I do believe it has been even more so for the other person I have been with. It has been my experience though (at the risk of drawing out the PC police) that women are more emotionally constituted than men, but that’s not to say that men are more “rational” as in making more sense or being more right. In fact, for me personally, this has caused problems b/c I tend to rationalize my own feelings and those of the person I’m with. I’ve learned over time this is a bad move :) for me personally and the other.
If I veered off the discussion proper, feel free to stick to the issues. I just had some thoughts on your post. Anybody need a drink?
11:20 AM, December 22, 2008
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